Article 50 Discussion

[unclebulgaria67]

Will Boris resign as PM next week ?

 

If he cannot get an election which seems possible and he won't extend article 50, then he says that is it.  No PM can ignore law passed by Parliament and the Courts won't want to be involved, unless law is not being complied with. So Boris will most likely resign

 

The Tories no longer have a majoity and if Boris resigns, then we will have HM the Queen asking to see Jeremy Corbyn.  Corbyn would be given time to form a Government and I could see a rainbow coalition. Whether this would work, who knows ?

 

Perhaps this is the game being deliberately played ? Hand over the Brexit process to Labour and other MP's, hoping it ends up in a complete mess. Boris then leads the Tories in a General Election, where they win with a large majority.  Sometimes strategies work out and sometimes not, particularly when there are too many unknown aspects.  

 

 

[brassnecked]

Jiustthink its a complete mess, Country votes Leave parliament want to Remain, so do everything to overturn the Referendum.  there may be trouble ahead, was the song lyric.

[honeybee13]

Which form of Brexit did the country vote for though?

[Jase1982]

13 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

Which form of Brexit did the country vote for though?

 

Indirectly a no deal brexit?  People may not have realised at the time, and can complain about MP's playing games etc now, but if you wanted to leave the European Union it meant out of the customs union and single market.  As we're now seeing it's impossible to leave and remain part of those things, with any sort of deal.

[honeybee13]

The high court has said that proroguing parliament was legal. It goes to the Supreme Court on 17th September, with the Edinburgh and Belfast cases IIRC.

[unclebulgaria67]

Is Brexit really about how someone sees the world ?

 

  Leave supporters may instinctively be independent minded, who only wish to deal with others on their terms.  Where as Remain supporters may be more inclined to enter into cooperative arrangements, where they don't mind being less independent, if on balance they believe they are better off as a result of a relationship.

 

This is obviously generalising how people are, but I think there may be a truth to this.  If many people are hard wired in this way and it is only 10% of the population who don't really care either way who decide, then a General election may not be best way forward.  The UK is divided, as opinion polls have shown about 45% support for Leave, 45% remain and about 10% undecided.

 

The 2016 referendum was very poorly run and the Remain campaign were outplayed by Vote Leave. The Government spent £9 million on a leaflet to every household, but never really made the case for remaining in the EU. If there is another referendum, they have to learn the lesson, that voters must have factual information that has been checked. And not to allow campaigns to continue to use any materials which don't meet the required standards.

[tobyjugg2]

4 hours ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

Will Boris resign as PM next week ?

 

 

As if

 

 

4 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

Which form of Brexit did the country vote for though?

 

Cake and eat it Brexit - as presented

 

 

3 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

The high court has said that proroguing parliament was legal. It goes to the Supreme Court on 17th September, with the Edinburgh and Belfast cases IIRC.

 

Of course its legal and legitimate, just as it was 'correct for the queen to grant it.

That the convention wasn't changed when it has previously been abused is the only 'crime -

and that of negligence or self interest.

 

The conventions, especially these 'royal prerogatives should be more tightly defined with any straying from a VERY tightly defined convention requiring a clear 2/3rds majority in Parliament.

examples

Proroguing Parliament should be clearly limited to 1-2 weeks unless ....

Henry VIII 'laws that allow bypassing of Parliament should be abolished - 'convenience be damned.

 

The Johnsonites and Brexiters will soon be howling if/when another similar/related is 'legitimately used.

(It has been mentioned in the more legitimate press but has of course been swamped - so probably missed)

 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[London1971]

Johnson is so utterly crap. All this talk of vim and oomph, 5 weeks ago, totally overplayed his hand, way too early.  Now he has a choice between resigning or going cap in hand to the EU, meaning the Brexit party will tear him to shreds.

[king12345]

3 hours ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

The 2016 referendum was very poorly run and the Remain campaign were outplayed by Vote Leave.

What???!!!

I must have been in a different country where a different referendum was run.

I couldn't get away from all the Remain campaign, leaflets, billboards, newspaper, tv and radio ads and so on.

Or maybe I should stop using my diesel car, it creates climate change and gives me hallucination as well as making my backside fat.

Damn Brexit!

Damn climate change!

Damn everything different from 1970!

[unclebulgaria67]

King

 

You miss the point. Remain campaign lacked any passion about EU membership.  They did a bad job at selling the Remain option.

 

Vote Leave were very passionate about their cause and they had most of the newspapers supporting them.

 

Selling the status quo and competing with a movement for change is very difficult. David Cameron should have thought about this, before he called the referendum.  

[king12345]

Unfortunately for the Remainers, Mr Cameron ahead of everyone else,  they were convinced of winning the referendum by a large margin.

Fools!

[hightail]

And anything said since about the dangers of leaving are labelled 'project fear'.  There's no doubt the leave campaign had, and continues to have, the catchiest slogans.

[tobyjugg2]

I've got a few catchy ones, but they would undoubtedly be edited

 

In the Meantime:

 

As the house of Lords passes the backbench bill aimed at blocking a no-deal Brexit, it is reported that 184.7 Million UK ditches have so far offered their services to Johnson in just the last few hours.

[king12345]

To me this Brexit business sound like the climate change fiasco: just a good excuse to extract more money from us, poor souls obliged to get up in the morning and go to work to survive.

In the long run all of this mess will make sense: we will lose one way or another. 

In or out the elite will punish us with more tax.

They've become very predictable.

[tobyjugg2]

Might be considered bad taste, but everything about our current 'leadership' is,

and given the tactics and 'messages the so called government is using:

 

 

 

Unsubstantiated rumours are appearing that following an unnamed politicians 'brothers lead, the whole family have disowned the obnoxious politician, claiming he was left on their doorstep as a baby on a Halloween night long ago.

 

 

His true (un)natural father and likely source of his bad genes, sociopathic tendencies and generally abhorrent immoral behaviour remains unclear, but a recently unearthed photo has led to some disturbing speculation.

 

The speculation became rampant when it was rumoured that since the politician was disowned, he is to take the name of the row his favourite suit was made on.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[king12345]

We had to get to post number 2444 for you to make a good joke...

God bless Boris, the man of miracles...

[London1971]

Despite being useless, and having a crap week he is still 10 points ahead of Labour in the latest poll.

[unclebulgaria67]

Opinion polls as a prediction tool for UK elections have been descredited.

 

For the 2017 election, out of about 8 polling companies, only 1 got it about right. The others were way out.

 

And the way polling is conducted is variable to say the least. For example Yougov headline voting intention reports only include those likely to vote. For historical reasons, they don't include a sizeable amount of Labours possible vote, as history suggest a percentage don't bother to go out to vote, whereas apparently Tories are more reliable voters.

 

There was another poll out last night, showing only a 3 point Tory lead and that is within the normal polling margin of error.

 

Some polling experts think the likely outcome of a 2019 is another hung Parliament. 

 

Only way to resolve Brexit is a final referendum, which this time needs to be binding on Parliament to implement.

[London1971]

@unclebulgaria67

 

I want what you are saying to be right, I also acknowledge that things can change very rapidly. However , polls do pick up trends, right now the trend is for the Tories to be ahead, to the tune of  a 20 - 50 seat majority.

 

However, a lot of people believe that a no deal Brexit will be the end of it, they are fed up of the whole bloody thing, so just want it over with, not realising that it would just be the start.

 

A lot of people see it that parliament are the bad guys, Boris is the good guy..

 

A lot of people aren't really paying much attention, a snippet from the Express here, from the Sun there..

 

Unfortunately all of the above means the a no deal is most likely. Unless of course Corbyn turns out to be an incredible campaigner. And the Opposition can stay united.

[brassnecked]

@ Unclebulgaria " Only way to resolve Brexit is a final referendum, which this time needs to be binding on Parliament to implement. "

 

If Leave won again, Swinson & Lucas would not accept it as wouldn't Chuka, Soubry and Continuity Remain.

 

If we did leave they would be pushing for Article 49 Rejoin.  Politics in the UK is terminally broken at the moment.

[tobyjugg2]

On 06/09/2019 at 21:45, king12345 said:

To me this Brexit business sound like the climate change

 

As the climate scientists said that the last time the world was this hot and wet it was ruled by dinosaurs, scorpions, spiders and snakes ..

 

The Tory party in particular does seem to be adding to the stark evidence that the scientists do know what they are talking about.

 

 

 

 

Johnsons last options do appear to be either breaking the law, breaking Parliamentary democracy (further) or resigning

as:

 

* proroguing parliament to bring back power to parliament (sic) 

* refusing the electorate a final say and voice on Brexit in the name of the peoples voice (sic)

* seeking a no confidence vote to ensure that he can fiddle and cheat and deceive to ensure  parliament is bypassed and the people are not given a voice on Brexit

 

appear to be quite rightly failing.

 

[tobyjugg2]

1 hour ago, brassnecked said:

@ Unclebulgaria " Only way to resolve Brexit is a final referendum, which this time needs to be binding on Parliament to implement. "

 

If Leave won again, Swinson & Lucas would not accept it as wouldn't Chuka, Soubry and Continuity Remain.

 

If we did leave they would be pushing for Article 49 Rejoin.  Politics in the UK is terminally broken at the moment.

 

and even if there was an overwhelming vote to remain, does anyone think Farage, or the ERG would accept it?

They want US corporations and deregulation - especially financial and general rights deregulation. Disloution of the UK as a world power is undoubtedly at least some of thems' ambitions.

Absolutely no doubt whatsoever on that.

 

(Boris Johnson will do whatever is least worst for Boris Johnson while promoting his personal ambitions whatever the cost to anyone else)

 

 

[brassnecked]

@tobyjugg2 It's lose/lose whatever happens.

[king12345]

34 minutes ago, brassnecked said:

@tobyjugg2 It's lose/lose whatever happens.

Exactly as I said.

The good ship to leave EU has now sailed.

Whatever they decide to do now we will pay for it.

It was their plan all along, whatever the referendum result.

Didn't I say that before the referendum?

 

P.S.: Climate change... I haven't seen a single unbiased report substantiated by evidence about the planet's climate being turned around by humans.

It's a fantasy to squeeze money out of us.

Think about it: what are they planning to do with our environmental tax money? Pay mother nature to stop the planet natural evolution?

No, they're gonna pocket the money and charge us more and more with help from brainwashed nobodies, i.e. Greta.

As I said a billion time before: you should be worried if the climate DIDN'T change,  very worried.

[tobyjugg2]

1 hour ago, king12345 said:

P.S.: Climate change... I haven't seen a single unbiased report substantiated by evidence about the planet's climate being turned around by humans.

It's a fantasy to squeeze money out of us.

 

 

Then you need to look beyond the express,

or squeeze out some more money and buy some sticky soled boots to add to your emergency supplies.