Facing redundancy - what's going to happen

[Lynnzer]

I'm very likely going to be made redundant in the near term and I need some help on one particular question.

Basically, the company has a Director who has suddenly contracted Alzheimer's and is incapable of managing the business. The company secretary, ie the spouse of the director is currently managing the business.

Apart from the director's awful illness problem,, the business has fallen well down on sales, due to the ongoing effect of the Covid situation, and apparently isn't making sufficient to pay the way. The company is taking small loans on an ongoing basis, sufficient to pay wages, though this is likely to be a problem shortly as the money is coming from the company secretary's personal bank.

I had discussions with the company secretary, in August, as to the problems of a continuance of the business and was sent an At Risk notification the next day.

It's extremely likely that things will grind to a quick halt, without any proper ACTUAL notification of redundancy. In the meantime, my pay has been increased due to working almost double the hours as I'm  involved in extensive stocktaking and other general tasks that would result in a true end of business report if, and when, any liquidation occurs.

The business is looking for a buyer to take the shop on, and will try to get an agreement for the continuance of the employees if it manages. However, the retail sector  involved is really stretched at present so I don't see much hope in a successful buyout.

Now, here's my main concern. It's likely that the business will make a sudden decision to close, with no official notification. Looking at my redundancy rights, and especially in regard to redundancy pay, I'm worried about how my 12 weeks notification wage period would be calculated to work out my redundancy pay. 

If I don't get an actual redundancy notice, does the 12 weeks pay prior to the company being liquidated count as the amount to work out my redundancy pay.

I suppose the easiest question is, if I'm not notified of my redundancy, what wage period would be used to calculate what I'll be owed.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Lynnzer
simplification

[Emmzzi]

Check how much redundancy pay you can get

WWW.CITIZENSADVICE.ORG.UK

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Find out if you can get redundancy pay, and check what contractual or statutory redundancy payments you'll get.

 

[Lynnzer]

15 minutes ago, Emmzzi said:

Check how much redundancy pay you can get

WWW.CITIZENSADVICE.ORG.UK

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Find out if you can get redundancy pay, and check what contractual or statutory redundancy payments you'll get.

 

Yeah, I've been looking at all of these sort of articles, however they don't provide the answer to the actual problem, which is - what period of pay prior to the liquidation of the company which closes without making any notification of redundancy would be used to calculate my average wage. 

Would it still be the 12 weeks prior to the liquidation/redundancy date, as this isn't answered properly on any article I've looked at.

[Lynnzer]

Yeah, I know the official process when a redundancy notice is given, however in this case it's likely there'll be no notification, and just a closure due to a winding up order of some sort.

So, if no actual redundancy notice has been given, is it still the 12 weeks prior to the closure and therefore the redundancy taking place. For instance, I'm on a variable hours contract so would the average pay be calculated the same as holiday pay, ie over the past 12 months, or would it still be the last 12 weeks wage

[Emmzzi]

if it's a liquidation, it'll be regular pay without overtime. So unless variable or zero hours, the reference period does not matter. You would need to advise more on your contract type for better information.

 

 

[Lynnzer]

19 minutes ago, Emmzzi said:

Yeah, it's a zero hours contract (or I think it is, but is certainly variable) due to exceptionally seasonal shop activity. In a busy period the wage can be as much as £450 a week but when things slow down it can drop to £200 or even less.

At present, one other shop assistant who was working on her own terms, on an ad-hoc basis with no employee status was doing 3 days a week and I have 4 days. Since she was advised of poor liquidity problems and the likelihood of insolvency, she's called it a day and is now searching for another job, so I'm doing a 6 day week again to take up the slack.

So for the last few months the wage has been around £200 but due to the need to fill in for the other assistant, it's going to be around 30 hours a week. Until a liquidation occurs, then that's going to be the situation from henceforth.

On that basis would the average pay be an annual average, or still be over the last 12 weeks?

How would the Redundancy Payment Service look at this?

 

[Emmzzi]

"Yeah, it's a zero hours contract (or I think it is, but is certainly variable)"

Exact wording matters, please.

[Lynnzer]

There's a couple of reference points.

1st is that my holiday pay entitlement will be based on legislative minimum requirements of the average of the last annual income. The number of days will be determined by the average of the days worked per week during this period. 

The reference to redundancy says that this will be determined according to whatever the legislative rights are at the time. It doesn't go any further than that.

So as far as I can make out, redundancy pay would be based on the average of the 12 weeks pay prior to the redundancy  taking place. Of course, this won't be something that the employer will have to decide as it will be handled by the RPS

[Lynnzer]

6 hours ago, Lynnzer said:

There's a couple of reference points.

1st is that my holiday pay entitlement will be based on legislative minimum requirements of the average of the last annual income. The number of days will be determined by the average of the days worked per week during this period. 

The reference to redundancy says that this will be determined according to whatever the legislative rights are at the time. It doesn't go any further than that.

So as far as I can make out, redundancy pay would be based on the average of the 12 weeks pay prior to the redundancy  taking place. Of course, this won't be something that the employer will have to decide as it will be handled by the RPS

Ah, I've dug out my contract after much searching my drawers. It says 

:Your redundancy payment will be calculated as that which is set to the prevailing Stautory Redundancy Terms by law, and the period over which such redundancy will be considered is set at the 12 week period up to the termination. 

So is this going to be OK, or is the legislation different.

I'm a bit concerned for one particular reason. I was working in a shop on a variable hours contract, with another girl doing some days, and myself doing the others. I normally worked 4 days a week and the other did 3.

That sort of complicates things perhaps. You see the other girl left last week. She was only a part time worker without an employment contract who also worked for another business. She knows what's going on with an imminent or likely liquidation so she called it quits to look for another job. 

As a result, I'm now doing a full week in the shop and my wages have become almost twice as much as before. Will that be become something to throw doubt onto the RPS about my claim? 

[Emmzzi]

once again, it depends on what your contract says about the hours you work. find us that bit, please.

[Lynnzer]

32 minutes ago, Emmzzi said:

once again, it depends on what your contract says about the hours you work. find us that bit, please.

It says: NORMAL WORKING HOURS - Qualifying days for the shop opening hours are for the full week from Monday to Sunday, hours of opening and attendance may be subject to change by prior agreement. Due to the seasonal variability of customer demand for the goods, you may be required to work over some holiday periods.

So there are no set hours as the seasonal variation impacts the necessity to work specific set hours.

[Emmzzi]

ok; then yes, you should be based on the preceding 12 weeks. To help that get processed faster I would start getting your wage slips in order so they are available and easy to hand over.

[Lynnzer]

3 minutes ago, Emmzzi said:

ok; then yes, you should be based on the preceding 12 weeks. To help that get processed faster I would start getting your wage slips in order so they are available and easy to hand over.

Thanks Emmzzi. Is it the liquidator who'll instigate the redundancy process

[Emmzzi]

They will give you a case number, then you put the claim in yourself. 

Your rights if your employer is insolvent: Apply for money you're owed - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

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If your employer is 'insolvent' this means it cannot pay its debts - your rights if this happens, claiming money owed to you, where to get advice

 

[theberengersniper]

Is there a reason for the multiple usernames? It only serves to make things harder for the contributors who would like to help you.

[AndyOrch]

30 minutes ago, theberengersniper said:

Is there a reason for the multiple usernames? It only serves to make things harder for the contributors who would like to help you.

 Only two names on the topic

[theberengersniper]

Indeed @Andyorch, but this post here:

appears to be about extremely similar circumstances, but by a different account. If I'm wrong then my sincere apologies.

[The-middle-man]

45 minutes ago, theberengersniper said:

Is there a reason for the multiple usernames? It only serves to make things harder for the contributors who would like to help you.

Yeas, there's a reason. The name I normally use is for different subject, and the second name is on behalf of my wife, who unfortunately can't post on here herself.

I don't want to obfuscate by adding two subjects into the initial topic, if you see what I mean. My initial questions are answered satisfactorily.

But yes, I'm Lynnzer, and I've posted as my wife in the other topic. I want to keep them separate

.So, any responses to the questions posed on the 2nd name would be gratefully received.

Edited October 9, 2023 by The-middle-man

[Emmzzi]

So the further information vastly changes advice because we're into the realm of becoming a defacto director by actions taken.

I am afraid I only deal with situations where we're upfront abut what is going on from the start, and it sounds like either yourself or your wife may be acting as a director in practice here. That complicates the situation massively. Please disregard prior advice.