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tobyjugg2 last won the day on November 22 2018

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  1. The real issue is that the Brexit version camps are as split as the Brexit/remain camps It all stems from the simple fact that Brexit was sold to the public on what we now know were blatant lies. 0. It was sold literally as: * All the benefits * No downsides * All ready to go with EU tree trade and world markets ready before we even started the leave process. There is little doubt that those who sold Brexit on that basis (Which include Vote Leave, Johnson, Gove, Davies, Redwood, Rees-Mogg, Fox and others) were and are either liars or total clueless incompetents who have demonstrated they are unfit for office in either case. So the leave vote is split in a way the Remain vote never was. 1. A vast number (almost certainly the most) must have voted on it based on as it was sold: No risk, all the benefits, all sorted to step straight into what we already have at less cost plus world trade deals - That simply is NEVER going to happen, and never was. 2. Others for Nationalistic reasons (commonly thought of as right wing): Damn foreigners, Make Britain great again, They are stealing our jobs and houses, We won the war. Bring back the East India company. - conveniently forgetting about how the masses were treated pre world war two until, let alone pre world war one. - I wont go into detail again on these other than state i believe they are wrong. 3. Still others for a different Nationalistic reasons (commonly thought of as far left) Damn foreigners stop us renationalising etc etc. We want to be a small English hive, not a big european hive. - I wont go into detail again on these other than state I believe they are wrong. 4. Still others who just wanted to stab at the establishment (the 'left behind' and dissatisfied - would perhaps have been called nihilists in bygone days) - Now looking into an even deeper abyss. 5. then of course there is those who voted remain - who simply voted for what they had. 0. Are the few who will personally benefit 1 and 3 have been lied to from the off and will NOT get what they voted for and even if only 10% of those have changed their minds based on better undertsanding of the reality of the situation - the decision would be reversed - and there seems to be FAR more than that changed their minds. The majority of 2 and 4, unless they are genuine nihilists wont get what they voted for and will end up in some form of increasingly National Socialist/Fascist state. - what many falsely accuse the EU of being. - and crucially - 2 and 4 as Leavers are as idealogical diametrically opposed on what Brexit should be as any Remain and Leaver. Will Britain be stronger if we Leave? Of course Not. The financiers are leaving The monetary Assets are leaving The Motor Industry is Leaving Scotland and Northern Ireland will be leaving the UK We will be left as a largely surrounded small Nation with no apart from a quite small amount of shale oil and EU nations to the North, West and East of us. That is of course why those few driving the Leave process so fear a fresh referendum, They NEVER have and NEVER would deliver on the promises they made to barely scrape a lead on the last one. and I for one am utterly angered by these politicians saying they must deliver on the decision of the people when they LIED and delivered NOTHING of their promises.
  2. Long before it broke the 3,000,000 mark, which it has, apparently the revoke article 50 petition on its own was three times the number of signatories as ALL the pro-Brexit petitions put together. The leave with no deal petition managed 400,000. "Analysis by software firm Tableau of the 16,000 petitions running on the government website showed the revoke Article 50 petition had more than three times as many signatures as all the pro-Brexit petitions combined. " https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-petition-article-50-revoke-theresa-may-deal-delay-news-a8835016.html
  3. Yes Seen how well that goes. A bit like Mays self indulgence - its my deal or no deal - no matter how crap it is If you haven't got something good to say - shut up. Cant even reply without logging in first and losing what you've typed rather than the log in option coming when you click post as it always did before. Like the ongoing deletion of posts here, seems like critique of Farage seems to be the same no go area as critique of Murdock, however valid. Who the heck knows what posts are still there and whether they were what you posted Also like May, I think this sites in its last days - and been hanging on grimly long past its sell by date. Just look at the responses in the forums to people asking for help 'start a new thread' 'You should have recorded it' 'Search the forums its already been answered' Wonder how long this post will last?
  4. Both absolutely bang on The only hope is for Parliament to actually carry out their threats to take back control - and quickly but even if they do, what then? What has been a fact for some months and quickly becoming an inescapable truth, the ONLY way to address this is to reset the entire process and revoke article 50. Its even to late for a referendum now without a MUCH longer extension and MEP elections. The EU is as sick of this as everyone else, I think if it wasn't for the EU NOT wanting any even half-way legitimate reason for them to be blamed for the UK's collapse they would have just let us fall over the cliff on the 29th How can an entire process thats been run almost entirely on lies and deceit from day 1 still be running, in whats supposed to be an educated democratic society? It beggars belief. You all had the notification from your car insurance companies about no deal requirements? https://u-k-insurance.co.uk/eugreencard.html and seen this from 'Hunt the even more hated' starting the 'Obey Trump whatever the cost to the tattered remnants of the UK's standing' process ? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/21/uk-will-change-tack-on-un-motions-criticising-israel-says-jeremy-hunt They will be putting him in charge of destroying childline next to protect the sort of politicians we have in power. and as a side note this damn site simply doesn't work properly any more
  5. Petition to revoke article 50 exceeds 1m signatures amid site crashes https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/21/petitions-site-crashes-after-thousands-back-call-to-revoke-article-50 When the site first crashed today the petition had received almost 600,000 signatures and was growing at a rate of 1,500 a minute. " It has been buoyed by support from celebrities including Hugh Grant, Jennifer Saunders and Brian Cox. The cause was also given surprise backing on Thursday morning by the chief minister of Gibraltar, Fabian Picardo, who told Sky News: “If on Tuesday MPs do not back the withdrawal agreement then the only way for the UK to take back control of the Brexit process is to revoke the article 50 notification.” https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584 "On Wednesday evening, Andrew White, the chief technology officer of the digital consultancy that built the petitions website, tweeted that the petition was receiving “an average of 1,000 signatures per minute. Not too bad but nowhere near crashing the site – you all need to try harder tomorrow.” The following morning, White conceded defeat"
  6. LOL May has very specifically asked for what the EU has clearly said wasn't a realistic option, for what isnt a valid reason EU responds OK She can maybe have the extension - if she can get her deal passed in UK parliament ... which of course would mean she wouldn't need the extension - as that was what it was for (as well as trying to put the EU in a legally vulnerable position) May snookered LOL May now starting to threaten resignation - and the Tory leadership battle that could actually split the Tory Party
  7. So what are we looking at now 1. May continues to run out the clock - with the 'short' extension request - May rumored to be asking for an extension - which the EU has said must have some justifiable reason beyond British parliament messing around some more - May could just 'not give one worth considering' - whip up anti EU sentiment and fail to 'bully' the EU and force Mays deal or a crash out no deal on the UK Parliament - with May blaming the EU 2. What could she do with an extension to further force 'her deal or no deal'? - Run an extension beyond the MEP elections without having the elections - then its almost certain the EU will refuse the UK any further extensions. - which could actually force Mays deal or a crash out no deal on the UK Parliament - with May blaming the EU What will Corbyn do? a) Call another three line whip vote of no confidence in PM MAY (not the government) - This would likely get the support of the ERG and a raft of other Tory hard Brexiters as May would almost certainly be replaced with a hard Brexiter NOT a Labour government. This might pass with a whipped Labour party - and be the ultimate betrayal of the Labour Party, Almost certainly split the Labour Party - not that Corbyn would be bothered with that. This would NOT be a Labour duty as it would NOT result in a general election. - but it would run out more of the very short time left. b) Call a vote of no confidence in the government - unlikely to pass as the Tories and DUP would NOT vote against their party - even if it passed Corbyn has no answers and no time - but it would run out more of the very short time left. What might be left as an alternative? This all seems to be to ensure the options are limited and that there wont be a second informed referendum. Only revoking the article 50 notification would be left to avoid a crash out or accepting Mays deal which is of course just another worst of all worlds kick the can down the road again ploy.
  8. I am really sick to death of Brexiters shouting, “where is the Trust, democracy and respecting the vote” as if someone were cheating them. Well Brexiters – good question – just wrong people being asked. Even with just the flat lie of 350M a week and temporarily ignoring all the many other lies, Brexit was presented by Vote Leave as “we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave" So along with the 350M a week claim being dropped within hours of the result being declared, what about this second bit of the Brexit T&C’s that were quickly reneged on? Well Brexiters, With the failure to meet even the headline Brexit side commitments and assurances given in the Brexit campaign – where IS the trust, democracy or respecting the vote? https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2290566/vote-leave-2016-taking-back-control-is-a-careful-change-not-a-sudden-step
  9. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-mp-christopher-chope-says-brexiteers-would-now-back-vote-to-topple-theresa-may_uk_5c8a703ae4b0450ddae8459e?wzc&utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage Corbyn now in line to topple May - in favour of a Brexiter
  10. Mays deal will be brought back again with a minutiae change if Bercow says no. The EU are VERY unlikely to grant anything other than 1. Short extension with defined objective with some chance of success 2. Long extension with MEP's etc - kick it well into the long grass rather than keep kicking it a few weeks away again and again We are So unprepared that revoking the article 50 notification is the only sensible 'business' route, but of course this is all about ideologies, NOT sense. The argument that the UK people would lose faith in UK politics is farcicle given its current state. The EU now seem to be expecting the UK to run around in circles until it vanishes into non-existence up its own backside before it even manages any form of Brexit. May seems hoping that the UK will allow a crash out or her (kick the can down the road) deal to avoid self- immolation by sphincter .. and are clearly unwilling to waste any more effort on any more UK games. The EU have more important issues to deal with than a completely divided UK which is becoming less important to the EU and the world stage by the week. Despite the ERG claims, the EU has bent over backwards to accommodate what they can of the UK's many disparate and conflicting fantasy wishes and have clearly had enough. For those who think the UK can quickly rejoin after leaving - I think there will be more than one veto applied on that and even if we could - it would be on more standard terms - which the UK would kick off about - and be sidelined until they met the criteria - thus avoiding even the need for a veto. If there is a long extension, we really DO need to ensure Farage and Banks do NOT get MEP seats to continue using to progress Foreign (to the UK and EU) interests. Not worried about genuine British Euro-sceptics so much - a bit of national self interest is spot on in my books - but I now honestly think Farage is actually working for Russian goals both here, the EU and in the US. Not tin hat stuff either - look at the current state of the investigations into them.
  11. So Mays deal defeated again - still probably needs another defeat though ... Round and round in circles, Like a teddy bear, 1 defeat 2 defeat and still she doesn't hear. + Leaving without a deal - rejected + count the abstentions as rejections too - Meaning is blurred lines though like Mays unilateral statement of waffle waffle blah blah. Binding on the UK to an extent - but not binding on the EU and still not a realistic option let alone a default one. Wont mean squat to May or Corbyn other than as political waffle ammo. Farage and hard Brexiters are lobbying EU right wing EU nations, like the UK's old ally Poland to refuse an extension .... and these RW anti EU'ers are saying that the anti-eu are an EU wide anti-eu who will work together to bring down the eu-eu ... So EU wide brexiters lobbying the EU - who they hate, to do their will to damage all sides (except Russia and America perhaps) * So with No deal Brexit not officially on the table - but still the default option in reality on 29th * Mays deal rejected twice (but still maybe another go to go) * The EU saying no more negotiating (unless the UK stance changes significantly at least) * The UK mainly saying its still Brexit with a deal * May says her deal or no deal * Corbyn saying his Brexit deal (undefined) * DUP and most of the ERG + a few Labour say no deal is the only deal * About 70-75% of the Tories LESS the ERG - demand BRexit - preferably with a deal * Corbyn saying general election (with nothing defined) * Farage and Friends trying to get the EU to veto an extension (only takes 1 to veto, but 2 to deal) The options seem to be * Carry on mucking about as May and Corbyn seem to be driving and crash out on the 29th whatever Parliament says they want - still the default * Agree Mays deal at third attempt or crash out on 29th - because May, the DUP, the ERG and Corbyn will continue running the clock out * Get an extension to do something - which the EU will have to agree * Revoke the article 50 notification which seems the only guaranteed way to NOT crash out apart from voting for Mays worst of all deals at third last minute attempt. Remember there is no transition deal without an exit deal. None of which the public voted for in the referendum (well apart from Remain) - including hard Brexit - never mentioned other than in passing - and falsely as a WTO wonderland fantasy. In fact Baldric Smeghead de fathead faffer Johnson actually said something like 'theres no plan for no deal as we'll get a great deal'
  12. I think France and some others would veto any return. All other things aside (and why would they want us back) Without Britain supporting Germany - as it often has - France has a far greater influence. and anyway - no way would we get our existing deal.
  13. Yep, Too true HB. The commonwealth is not interested in a return to empire. Same with India, Japan and even China .. as was stated in one of these threads here perhaps 2 years ago. I think Fox has actually signed some deal with some African country to sell us bananas though. Seems he thinks we are all Minions. India has rescinded UK financier protections, and is quite clearly stating free/enhanced movement is part of any future deal - but is losing interest fast as they work on a direct deal with the EU. Japan seems to be entirely losing interest in the UK except as a backwater as it now HAS a deal with the EU and isn't interested in some small Island whose population is skint and cant afford new cars (seen to fall in new car sales?) and will have tariffs. China will carry on via ebay etc flogging us copy goods - but might benefit greatly from the Brexiters proposed dropping of import tariffs - at no cost to them. The US want the rights and regulations bonfire as part of their deal - which the Brexiters have no issue with of course - except Gove it would seem - if you can believe anything he says. Its beginning to look a lot like Brexit, Everyone will go ...
  14. oops - missed a bit of nothing " May did indeed get something unilateral – the right to issue her own unilateral declaration, in which she could freely state that “it is the position of the United Kingdom that there would be nothing to prevent the UK instigating measures that would ultimately dis-apply the backstop.” This is rather like my son winning the right to declare that it is his position that he should get more pocket money. It doesn’t mean I’ve agreed to give him more pocket money. The clue is in the word “unilateral.” The EU is not bound by this UK declaration and has, in fact, conceded nothing. "
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