Disciplinary Meeting

[honeybee13]

Please, we need to know the policy wording.

 

HB

[ericsbrother]

what part of the disciplinary process is a without prejudice verbal notification that a meeting may be held some time in the future?

 

Insurance Co's have a habit of inventing new meanings for words so I wouldnt be surprised if they would try this on if they could but your HR dept may have some explaining to do themselves if they make statements that are untrue. Verbal warnings are noted, so are words of advice.

 

This appears to be neither and the words without prejudice carry some weight in this case because it clearly refers to all matters that they wish to consider in the future but didnt do so. That means they can start the same action again on the same terms only if they were a genuine attempt to reach a settlemnt based on openness and honesty (see "clean pair of hands").

 

It can be argued that if they told the insurance co things that you had agreed were between you and them it is possible to revisit the other arrangements made as part of that agreement. Generally though, in employment law it is all rather one-sided so dont expect your employer to help you

Edited December 3, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[dacouc]

Does your Policy include Dismissal?

 

Most of these types of policy only include redundancy

[honeybee13]

Thank you for commenting, dacouc.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, we need newlyn to tell us the policy wording, I think.

 

HB

[landlor]

Hello Friends,

 

I have been having difficulties with my manager at work place and HR has given informal notice that a chair will be organised to look into my performance as disciplinary matter.

 

There has been no formal notice given to me yet but the manager has told my team mates that I am going. My team mates have started asking about this and it makes me feel bad. Is this not a case of Defamation of character.

 

Thanks.

[renegadeimp]

Nope. But it could be seen as bullying and Intimidation

[BankFodder]

It could be a defamation of character if the information given by your manager was untrue. If the information is true then it is definitely a very serious breach of confidence. Breach of confidence would me much easier to bring an action on for some measure of compensation.

 

How much evidence have you got of this? Would your colleagues be prepared to make statements? Frankly, if it could be shown that your manager had been telling this to your colleagues then your manager would him/herself have committed a serious employment breach and should be subject to a disciplinary.

[Guest]

yes, explore any other poss avenues (partic any employment rights/protection) first (as bankfodder mentioned). defamation cld be tricky, and potentially costly.

[BazzaS]

If it isn't untrue, (or is "substantially true" it isn't defamation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/26/section/2

 

Even if it is untrue, has it caused (or would it be likely to cause) you "serious harm". If not, it isn't defamation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/26/section/1

[dx100uk]

Numerous threads relating to the same base issue merged

[landlor]

It could be a defamation of character if the information given by your manager was untrue. If the information is true then it is definitely a very serious breach of confidence. Breach of confidence would me much easier to bring an action on for some measure of compensation.

 

How much evidence have you got of this? Would your colleagues be prepared to make statements? Frankly, if it could be shown that your manager had been telling this to your colleagues then your manager would him/herself have committed a serious employment breach and should be subject to a disciplinary.

 

I have got chat log on official chat software from my colleagues where they tell that my manager has said that I am going. I have kept screen shot of the chat log. Such screen shots I have from chat conversation of two of my colleagues.

 

The fact is that there is not even a formal notice of disciplinary action to be initiated against me, how then can the manager say that I am going. At least as of today that is an untrue statement. If in future , my employer terminates my employment, will that be called a true statement?

[unclebulgaria67]

You really need an employment law specialist. The conduct of the manager might give rise to you making a case against your employer.

 

It is quite awhile since i had training from a Solicitor about managing staff HR issues, but i seem to remember that this type of conduct by your manager was mentioned as being actionable by the employee in an employment tribunal. I have only come across it once in reality, where a manager got into trouble with the company discussing a members of staffs upcoming dismissal for performance issues. It ended up with a complaint dealt with by HR and the manager given an official warning.

[landlor]

Are those evidences good enough?

[BazzaS]

I have got chat log on official chat software from my colleagues where they tell that my manager has said that I am going. I have kept screen shot of the chat log. Such screen shots I have from chat conversation of two of my colleagues.

 

The fact is that there is not even a formal notice of disciplinary action to be initiated against me, how then can the manager say that I am going. At least as of today that is an untrue statement. If in future , my employer terminates my employment, will that be called a true statement?

 

Are those evidences good enough?

 

"Good enough" to prevent your dismissal : I doubt it.

 

Does it matter if "it is called a true statement" (if your employer terminates your employment)?.

Whether it is true or not matters regarding if it is defamatory (and then only if it has, or would, cause you "serious harm", for it to be "defamation"), rather than it affecting your dismissal. It might be different if there had been a statement of "newlyn is going to be dismissed", as that would suggest that they had already made up their mind, prior to the investigatory meeting ..... but not if the manager had instead (breaching protocol) revealed that there was an impending disciplinary.

 

If they have reasonable grounds on which to dismiss you, and follow procedure (relating to your dismissal), the manager's actions are at most grounds for them to face a disciplinary, not prevent yours .....

[landlor]

Hello Bazza, Thanks for reply. I am not looking at it just from Dismissal point of view. Is loss of reputation not serious for an 'Individual'?

 

Also, coming to weather this statement is True or False, even if my manager has made up his mind to dismiss me, at all cost including Settlement, as long as there is no formal evidence to it, I think it is an untrue statement. No?

[Emmzzi]

Is loss of reputation not serious for an 'Individual'?

 

 

1. can you demonstrate what their reputation was to begin with? Can the employer/ defendant?

 

Can you monetise it? Hurt feelings carry almost no weight.

[honeybee13]

newlyn, back in September, a couple of the guys suggested looking for another job. How is that going?

 

HB

[BazzaS]

Hello Bazza, Thanks for reply. I am not looking at it just from Dismissal point of view. Is loss of reputation not serious for an 'Individual'?

 

The Defamation Act 2013 requires serious harm (actual or potential) for defamation to have occurred. This suggests that it recognises not all loss of reputation creates "serious harm", otherwise there would be no need for this test.

 

You'd have to show how it was "serious" for you.

 

So, someone might point out a post I'd made in which I'd made a typo, or misunderstood / misapplied the law, or given poor advice.

That might lead me to have a loss of reputation.

If it was felt that my posts weren't usually carelessly written ; Unless I made a habit of such (or it was a whopper of a mistake with dangerous wrong advice!) : I doubt it would be "serious".

 

Also, coming to weather this statement is True or False, even if my manager has made up his mind to dismiss me, at all cost including Settlement, as long as there is no formal evidence to it, I think it is an untrue statement. No?

 

What?!

"even if my manager has made up his mind to dismiss me, at all cost including Settlement, as long as there is no formal evidence to it, I think it is an untrue statement."

Regarding the truth of the statement:

A) What does it matter why the statement was made?

B) What does it matter if there is "formal evidence" or not?

 

If the manager said "NewLyn is going to a disciplinary", either that was true or it wasn't, and if it the time they believed you were going for a disciplinary....it was true. Why they said it or if it was backed up by "formal evidence" doesn't affect its truth!

 

The manager may have breached policy by revealing it, but to suggest it was untrue just because of why you think they said it, or that they couldn't brandish the communication calling you to a disciplinary as "formal evidence" ; don't you think this suggests you are 'grasping at straws'??

 

You are likely to be going to a disciplinary?? So, remind us why the statement is untrue?

Unwise (to have made the statement) : probably!, but "unwise" and "untrue" are two very different things!!

 

newlyn, back in September, a couple of the guys suggested looking for another job. How is that going?

 

HB

 

I can't see this ending well for the OP (in terms of them keeping this job, or being happy in this job if they keep it, given their relationship with their boss).

 

HB, I think you are right to wonder about where the OP should be focusing their attention (job searching vs. clutching at straws as to if "newlyn is going to a disciplinary" is untrue or causes them serious harm!)

[sangie5952]

Reading through the whole thread, it strikes me that the OP has overly complicated this by totally ignoring one piece of advice that had been repeated several times.

 

The OP is a very long time off gaining the two years they require to claim unfair dismissal. So there is no claim to an employment tribunal since there is no evidence that this "dismissal" relates to any of the exceptions.

 

Given that is the case, everything else is hopelessly grasping at straws, which, apart from anything else, even if the OP had a case (and I can't see one either) would cost them a lot of money to mount. If the OP had that much money to risk then they wouldn't be trying to hopelessly cling on to their job. They wouldn't need to work!

 

OP, I'm sorry but there is only a very blunt way to put this. It does not matter what your opinion of your performance at work is. The opinion that matters is your managers. And that is the only opinion the employer will care about. So you have two options. The first is that you find another job. The second is that you stick your head down and do the work to exactly the standard that the manager wants, and in the way that the manager wants. It may be too late for the latter now, but that is the only option other than get a new job.

 

Everyone has been been telling you this for two months, over four pages. I understand that it isn't palatable advice. I understand that you are upset and angry. And you may be right about everything - you may not be doing anything wrong and the manager may want you out for other reasons. But you must understand that none of that matters. Everything here is screaming that you are going to be dismissed. And you are clinging to an invisible thread that says you might be able to sue the employer. You can't. Simples!

 

Please, for your own sake, listen to people. Get out under your own steam before anything else happens. No matter what happens now, that is your only real option. Then move on and have a successful career, and prove them wrong with it. But you can't prove them wrong now - that boat has sailed.

[landlor]

Thanks all for replies and the advise/concern.

 

The manager has told everybody that I am going out of the company, not just to disciplinary meeting.

 

Also I am not wrong so why should I be looking for another job. If the managers case was really strong, HR would have been quick in taking action. I think they are waiting to collect evidence for any mistakes I make now.

 

The manager cant disclose these things. Weather it is breach of confidence or defamation of character is another matter. Whatever it is, is unfair to me. So I am not leaving job as I am not wrong and the manager has no evidence to prove my poor performance. The HR was consistently telling that there is loss of trust and confidence and they will use this implied term of contract to push me out. I am collecting my side to show that it is manger who has breached trust and confidence.

 

It may be a gamble but I will play this. I still think I have a case. The manager can't just go and tell this to everybody. I have solid written evidence from my collauges. I shouldn't be intimidated. I will rather turn the table and get the manager a warning, even before my hearing is done. If they initiate a hearing, it is they who will be getting into trouble. The solicitor knows this as I have already shown him some emails from manager which were in bad taste.

[BazzaS]

"2 wrongs don't make a right".

If your manager gets disciplined for their wrongdoings it won't prevent you being fired.

 

Can you show (regardless of the manager's actions) that if you had a different manager there would be NO suggestion you should be facing a disciplinary?

 

As for "I will rather turn the table and get the manager a warning, even before my hearing is done." ; they may get a disciplinary but it still won't stop you being fired.

You are putting your efforts into the wrong desired outcome.

[landlor]

Thanks for your replies.

 

I am putting all my efforts to keep the job. My plan is to show that despite these many misdeeds from manager, I am continuing to work hard.

 

If they still fire me, then I will raise case for defamation. But changing job is no no for me.

 

Any suggestions after I clarified that manager has been telling people that I am going out of company ( and not for disciplinary ). How can he say that I am going out of company when even a hearing has not been set-out.

[BazzaS]

 

If they still fire me, then I will raise case for defamation.

 

What is the untruth?.

Why is the harm "serious"?.

 

But changing job is no no for me.

 

It isn't a "no no" if they fire you, unless you plan on never working again.

[unclebulgaria67]

The harm could be serious, as the behaviour of the manager could be doing psychological damage to Newlyn, due to constant nature of negative undermining comments being made to Newlyns colleagues.

 

Newlyn needs to gather evidence and submit a formal grievance against this manager to HR ASAP, but in doing so should be aware that colleagues who have witnessed the managers behaviour might not be willing to go on record.

[sangie5952]

Thanks for your replies.

 

I am putting all my efforts to keep the job. My plan is to show that despite these many misdeeds from manager, I am continuing to work hard.

 

If they still fire me, then I will raise case for defamation. But changing job is no no for me.

 

Any suggestions after I clarified that manager has been telling people that I am going out of company ( and not for disciplinary ). How can he say that I am going out of company when even a hearing has not been set-out.

 

You are not "raising a case for defamation". In order to mount a case - leaving aside whether you have one or not - requires a court deposit of £10,000 before your legal costs etc, which will easily be as much, and probably more, again.

 

You are clearly not seeing the reality of your situation. You claim that HR would have been involved before now if you were as bad as the manager says. For goodness sake, there has been a lawyer in the room, not once, but twice. Employers do not incur legal costs by putting a lawyer in the room simply for the fun of it. Having had two meetings with a lawyer is far more serious than having HR in the room!

 

I am sorry but I am in agreement with BazzaS here - you are being wildly unrealistic in your expectations, and stubbornly short-sighted in your approach. And relying on anonymous websites for advice which may be very misleading as to your prospects, and telling you just what you want to hear.

 

 

Clearly you have made your mind up and will not be dissuaded from what is, in my opinion, a reckless course of action, so I am going to have one last stab at this. Since you clearly have £10,000 to spend on a court deposit - because you wouldn't be making threats to sue for defamation unless you knew what you were doing and that it would cost you this much for starters, would you? - use some of that money to get proper legal advice!

 

You have insufficient service to claim unfair dismissal if and when you are sacked. Your manager is not going away no matter what you say and do - you need to understand that the managers view of your performance is what the employer relies upon - and if, in the unlikely event that you succeeded in getting them disciplined, you do not get to keep your job because the manager will be after you with renewed purpose. And the reality is that you cannot afford to mount a defamation claim even if you had one, which does not appear to be remotely the case.

 

The harm could be serious, as the behaviour of the manager could be doing psychological damage to Newlyn, due to constant nature of negative undermining comments being made to Newlyns colleagues.

 

Newlyn needs to gather evidence and submit a formal grievance against this manager to HR ASAP, but in doing so should be aware that colleagues who have witnessed the managers behaviour might not be willing to go on record.

 

There is no evidence of "constant nature of negative undermining comments being made to Newlyns colleagues". Constant? Negative? Undermining? None of these things are in evidence.

 

There is actually not a shred of evidence that the manager has done anything at all!

The manager is not satisfied with the performance of an employee, and has, quite correctly, informed that employee in a formally recorded meeting.

 

 

The fact that a solicitor was present was an unusual twist, but actually serves to underline the fact that the employer is being scrupulous in ensuring their own position. What staff gossip says is irrelevant.

 

 

There is no evidence at all, even if these people are prepared to put their jobs on the line, that the manager has said any such thing. It is hearsay.

And one needs to be aware of the fact that the colleagues may well have their own agenda here, and are quite happy to throw a colleague to the wolves for their own purposes.

 

 

It isn't remotely impossible for employees to work out the lay of the land without a manager saying anything.

And even if they are siding with Newlyn, and being wildly foolish in committing that to digital chat, do you really think they won't turn on him in a second when they realise that he has been capturing what they have said and intends to use it as evidence

- putting every single one of them in the firing line?

 

 

Far from not being willing to go on record, the chances are very high that they will turn on Newlyn and help to rip him to shreds

- you do not expect your colleagues to thank you for dragging them into your mess.

They were foolish to commit to saying anything that could be captured - but they won't make that mistake a second time, and they may well suffer for doing it a first time.