Article 50 Discussion

[tobyjugg2]

Just now, tobyjugg2 said:

So what do you think about Rees Mogg moving his business to the RoI

.. hardly showing confidence in his own Brexiteering is he?

 

or in his vision Brexit Britain

... perhaps because they are planning to make a killing on asset stripping the collapsing UK companies caused by their antics

 

what do you reckon?

[tobyjugg2]

 

Don't you think its strange that 'Investment' companies who are reportedly  'betting' on Brexit collapsing UK companies are funding Johnson and Brexit?

 

[cjcregg]

9 hours ago, Maharg1 said:

"Government have entered into private agreements with the European Community that they will, on completion of remain or whatever it is to be, transfer to the European Union in Brussels the entire control of our entire fighting forces, including all their equipment"

 

Quote

You're the one making the claim that it is garbage, I quoted what was said in the House of Lords.

 

 

Err not quite. Here's the actual (unedited) quote by Lord James of Blackheath as recorded in Hansard:

 

Quote

Is it really true that the Government have entered into private agreements with the European Community that they will, on completion of remain or whatever it is to be, transfer to the European Union in Brussels the entire control of our entire fighting forces, including all their equipment? [Laughter.]

 

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2019-09-06/debates/0C259B8B-7232-4228-BB00-E258510FD926/EuropeanUnion(Withdrawal)(No6)Bill

 

So not only did you edit the quote front & back to make it appear as a some kind of statement of fact, rather than a question, his peers laughed at it.

 

 

 

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

@Maharg1

 

So @Maharg1 were you 'mistaken,  and/or incompetent,  and/or simply trying to deliberately deceive us?

 

Perhaps also consider that 'mistaken' should also encompass grossly incompetent given such a wildly unbelievable claim, even if what was (not) 'quoted had been accurate and honest.

 

Sounds rather like the question that needs to be asked of everything Johnson and Vote Leave as a hole (sic) utter .

 

 

 

 

@Maharg1- In mitigation, perhaps if you just copied that 'doctored' text from some other 'mistaken and/or incompetent and/or simply lying source,

we can accept that you are merely incompetent as an excuse, and not actively seeking to promote lies or deceive us.

Particularly as you do seem to show you have no actual knowledge or understanding of the area you posted on AND are unwilling to properly support your claims..

 

Was that the case? or were you deliberately presenting false statements?

That second final  point in italics does seem to lead us to doubting your sincerity.

Edited October 2, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

Claimed Johnson possibilities re the Benn bill is that he will veto the extension he requests (or perhaps simply not vote FOR it)

I don't know the ins and outs of this.

 

Because despite all the Leave claims that we have no say,

... in LAW each and every nation in the EU has veto's on many things including any new members (eg Turkey) and for the UK's article 50 notification

.. including the UK.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

I'm not sure we have a vote on the extension. I found this:

 

An extension can only happen if the UK formally requests it and it is unanimously agreed by the remaining member states. 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/02/brussels-will-reluctantly-agree-brexit-extension-rebel-mps-succeed/

[tobyjugg2]

9 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

if the UK formally requests it and it is unanimously agreed by the remaining member states. 

 

 

 

 

TY HB. Good find.

 

I wouldn't put it past johnson to look for a veto though..

A veto vote might be a different issue?

[honeybee13]

He's denied asking other EU leaders to veto an extension. I can't believe the way no 10 is going about this, very unprofessional.

[tobyjugg2]

2 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

He's denied asking other EU leaders to veto an extension. I can't believe the way no 10 is going about this, very unprofessional.

 

Doesn't need to ask others if he can veto the extension himself ... after asking for the extension

Hopefully the Benn bill caters for Johnsons government kyboshing the extension request via veto or any other means

Edited October 2, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

16 hours ago, cjcregg said:

 

The ex Supreme Court Justice Jonathon Sumption (he who represented the banks in the Supreme Court bank charges case and won) was asked about that scenario and he said that if Johnson did anything contrary to genuinely seeking and obtaining an extension after the letter is sent it would have the effect of invalidating the extension request letter and he would thus be in breach of the Benn Act.

 

The act doesn't just require him to seek an extension, he has to accept it if the EU agrees to it.

 

Excellent find there by cjregg which might cater for veto

.. but I'm not certain.

[cjcregg]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before, apologies if it has, but if not I think most who post on this thread would find it especially interesting.

 

I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories but this 12 minute video from Bloomberg does seem raise some genuine questions about the integrity of Nigel Farage, the Leave campaign and their chums in the city.

 

 

 

[London1971]

No way is Boris Johnson going to be able to get around the Benn Act.  

 

My prediction.  Johnson fails to come up with a deal at summit.  More Tories defect to Lib Dems , VONC ensues, Caretaker government set up, everyone settles on Kier Starmer / Ken Clarke deputy .  1 year A50 ext set up. 1922 commitee gives Boris his marching orders (It's the scandals not Brexit), another Tory Leadership contest ensues, followed by a GE, perhaps Javid or Gove as leader.

[fletch70]

It is so true when 'they' say a week is a long time in politics.

 

We have gone from not entertaining a motion of no confidence before an extension is agreed to doing one this week . 

 

I really am not sure- reading the papers today there is talk that a 'secret' deal has been done with the DUP but who knows and in any event how does the maths work out. 

 

Sadly I can not go to the London demo on 19th as I am working but my partner and two friends are. In an ideal world we would just revoke A50 but to be fair, if a deal is on offer that should be put to a public vote with deal or remain as the binary options - anything like a STV and multiple choice would just confuse the electorate in England.

[brassnecked]

Any of the EU 27, can Veto, as I mentioned, UK HAS to ask, Benn Act cannot compel the EU to grant extension, and they have all misunderstood the Article 50 process, as illustrated by banning Bills and shenanigans., where NO Deal is default a default caused by voting down the only Agreement in town, the May WA.  Barnier cannot negotiate anything else as it would be outside his mandate, which would have to be changed and don't think the EU want to reopen negotiations, as far as they are concerned the only deal in town is the WA.

[London1971]

Correct but the EU will grant an extension, they will not throw Ireland under a bus.

[Jase1982]

It looks to me as though Boris is preparing to cede Northern Ireland to the European Union.  Again, they're just not saying what the proposals actually are and it's being fluffed up.

 

Is that what people voted for?  The price of European Union membership is apparently Northern Ireland.

[London1971]

It's all pointless anyway. He won't get it through parliament.

[tobyjugg2]

27 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

It looks to me as though Boris is preparing to cede Northern Ireland to the European Union.  Again, they're just not saying what the proposals actually are and it's being fluffed up.

 

Is that what people voted for?  The price of European Union membership is apparently Northern Ireland.

 

More correctly IMO:

Part of the price of Brexit is the British union.

 

 

1 hour ago, London1971 said:

My prediction.  Johnson fails to come up with a deal at summit.  More Tories defect to Lib Dems , VONC ensues, Caretaker government set up, everyone settles on Kier Starmer / Ken Clarke deputy .  1 year A50 ext set up. 1922 commitee gives Boris his marching orders (It's the scandals not Brexit), another Tory Leadership contest ensues, followed by a GE, perhaps Javid or Gove as leader.

 

 

Just Starmer as PM I think highly unlikely there.

 

Perhaps Ken Clarke PM, Starmer or Thornberry deputy

although the ERG wont like any of that.

Corbyn wont like anyone but himself as PM,

and the Tories wont accept Corbyn as PM

 

 

 

 

[Ethel Street]

2 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

Doesn't need to ask others if he can veto the extension himself ... after asking for the extension

 

 

He can't do that. Article 50 says that the withdrawing Member State cannot participate in any discussions at the European Council concerning their withdrawal, so Johnson could not veto his own request for an extension. The UK is not allowed to be there when the vote is taken. [Article 50(4)]

[tobyjugg2]

 

Great job there from @Ethel Street

the relevant bit

Looks rather watertight - although happy to be corrected.

 

" 4.   For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. "

[honeybee13]

So Ireland and the EU don't like Boris's final offer and Lord (Peter) Hain says it breaks the Good Friday Agreement. 

 

Boris says the next step is no deal. 

 

Maybe Dominic Cummings was right when he said he saw them spending a lot of time in court over the next few weeks. 

[honeybee13]

The GMB union has been talking about Trump's new trade tariffs on goods from the EU. They're of the opinion that it won't get any better after Brexit and that we can't count on the US.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/03/whisky-tariffs-are-glimpse-of-post-brexit-future-says-union

[brassnecked]

No we can't count on the USA, to Trump its America First, so any Trade Deal will be detrimental to our interests.

[honeybee13]

It's interesting that Boris hasn't said anything about his buddy Trump over this. I suppose he can't really, it goes against his argument that there's a great trade deal coming after we free ourselves from Europe.

[honeybee13]

There's rumour that's started about the UK paying money to Hungary to get them to veto any request for an extension. There was a Hungarian delegation at Downing Street yesterday.