The European Union.....In or Out?

[citizenB]

I rather suspect that all of this is quite irrelevant now - I get the feeling that most people have been bullied/cowed into voting the way the government wants. Hardly democratic IMHO.

[citizenB]

http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-referendum-reasons-and-analysis-on-a-brexit-vote-2016-6

 

Firstly, the real reason why it is taking place has little to do with empowering the public.

 

The Prime Minister made a promise to hold a referendum to appease the anti-EU wing of his party and its support.

 

Cameron was not happy about it. In fact, he said in a speech in January 2013 that he had been under pressure by MPs to deliver a referendum and that "disillusionment" with the EU was at an "all-time high." So effectively, it was an exercise in party management and a successful one at that. It played at least some part in securing enough votes to return the Conservatives into government with a majority.

 

 

Too many people don't know what they are voting on

 

After what feels like an eternity of campaigning, the majority of the British public knows no more about the EU and the facts related to this debate than they did in February when the date of the referendum was announced.

 

This is not me being condescending. In fact, members of the public are the first to admit that they are not fully equipped with enough knowledge to make an informed decision in this referendum.

 

Nearly four in ten (37%) said that they don't know very much or know nothing at all about the issues surrounding the UK's EU membership, according to ORB research published earlier this month.

 

This is such a shame considering that a record number of people registered to take part in this referendum with turnout expected to be over 70%. But it ought to have us very concerned too.

 

 

That's because this referendum looks like is going to be decided by a winning margin of no more than 6%. Yet, nearly 40% of people say that they are not informed about what they are voting on. This means that the uninformed vote could decide the outcome. This is alarming.

 

 

 

On top of that, latest polls from YouGov show that people do not even trust what the campaigns are saying anyway:

[fletch70]

Just catching up, I see that buckthorn has reposted his thread. I think that Buckthorn is confusing the EU with liberal capitalism of which the U.S. Is the biggest proponent. This is why so many companies are owned by 'foreign' companies although of course the shareholders will be global . I am wondering where the failure of Chinese steel in a nuclear power plant happened?

 

Going on to the point that has been made about renegotiation, this is something I have thought about a lot. I have believed, not based on fact but just a feeling, that many people may consider voting to leave in the hope of it happening. Clearly Boris is trying to persuade people this is an option although politicians and players in Europe are all saying this can not and will not happen. I mentioned this to a politics academic today who agreed that this wouldn't be possible, as much because it would completely undermine the integrity of the referendum process as anything else. Again, my gut tells me that a leave vote will cause significant turmoil over and above anything that may be happening. The thought of another crisis when we still haven't recovered from the last one is rather scary

[cjcregg]

I rather suspect that all of this is quite irrelevant now - I get the feeling that most people have been bullied/cowed into voting the way the government wants. Hardly democratic IMHO.

 

 

In what way do you feel that people have been ''bullied'' into voting the way the government wants?

[unclebulgaria67]

Certain newspapers have treated their readers as sheep for years, by printing silly stories about the EU or politicians they don't agree with. Now with the internet and declining newspapers sales, it is not as easy for them to push the flock of readers to vote in a certain way.

 

LBC had some polling done, with questions about possible conspiracies in regard to the referendum. Apparently about a quarter of people believed the vote would be rigged in favour of remain. James O'Brien did a phone in where leave voters were phoning up saying they thought the government would make sure remain won by any means. When it was explained how voting was supervised by Electoral commission and observers from both sides of the campaign, they still believed in a possible conspiracy. This might just be a lack of information in the public domain about voting processes and security, but it is worrying if a quarter don't trust officials involved in elections.

 

Whatever the result, it won't resolve this issue. It is the nature of politics, that at least half of the country won't be happy with the result. Referendums on such issues are not a solution. UK should have proportional representation and a wider selection of political parties people can vote for, plus i would like to see more independent MP's It is then up to parliament to work harder for the public and do so in a cooperative way that is best for the country. If UK parliament wants changes in EU rules, it is better for them to work across parties to achieve this, by using evidence rather than just political flavour of the time.

[tobyjugg2]

Just catching up, I see that buckthorn has reposted his thread. I think that Buckthorn is confusing the EU with liberal capitalism of which the U.S. Is the biggest proponent. This is why so many companies are owned by 'foreign' companies although of course the shareholders will be global . I am wondering where the failure of Chinese steel in a nuclear power plant happened?

 

Just been and voted - REMAIN

 

Buckthorn has a number of relevant points, its just the completely reversed conclusions he comes to from reading them, or perhaps reading what a few particular sites promote them as.

 

Chinese steel is lower quality, but any remaining 'British' steel will also not be of the very high quality (and relatively expensive steel) that Britian was famous for.

- to attempt to compete with Cameron protected cheap dumped Chinese steel.

Probably politically incorrect to call the chinese stuff monkey metal as we used to - where cheap screw heads chewed up and destroyed cheap Chinese screwdrivers at a single turn).

 

Migration is an issue, but walking away from the table making the decisions and hiding behind imaginary walls is certainly not a way to address it.

 

Companies have been set up and their assets and pension schemes robbed, by people of all nationalities, inclinding English Lords (BHS), and the remains handed to the Britsh taxpayer to sort out.

but thats because of English politicians ensuring that British laws enable that and that EU laws cannot stop it. (Cameron blocking EU financial regulations)

 

the list goes on as we have seen throughout this thread.

[unclebulgaria67]

I will be voting remain for many reasons, but principally i am an internationalist and not a nationalist. I don't like countries retreating back to nationalistic ways, as that has never been a peaceful way to exist. Secondly in terms of economics, we will see a huge battle between China and US during the coming decades, which might prove a challenge for the UK alone. Being part of the EU means that we are part of 500+ million trading block and more powerful in standing up to the challenges we will face. Once you are out of the EU, if later you wish to rejoin, you then have to accept the Euro, plus other conditions we have currently opted out of.

[NancyMan]

Today is a big day.. The most important thing is to have an honest vote

[citizenB]

 

Going on to the point that has been made about renegotiation, this is something I have thought about a lot. I have believed, not based on fact but just a feeling, that many people may consider voting to leave in the hope of it happening. Clearly Boris is trying to persuade people this is an option although politicians and players in Europe are all saying this can not and will not happen. I mentioned this to a politics academic today who agreed that this wouldn't be possible, as much because it would completely undermine the integrity of the referendum process as anything else. Again, my gut tells me that a leave vote will cause significant turmoil over and above anything that may be happening. The thought of another crisis when we still haven't recovered from the last one is rather scary

 

 

If the stories about the chaos that will follow a Brexit vote are true and if that is what the UK votes for, then surely those countries.. eg, Australia, America and the rest of Europe will be more inclined to renegotiate or look at the way Europe is run at the moment and make it more "user friendly" for the voters and not just the money men !

 

In what way do you feel that people have been ''bullied'' into voting the way the government wants?

 

 

Threats to their pensions, house prices, employment - Employers and Unions emailing their employees, members "advising" them the way they should vote.. in order to protect their jobs !

[aburobert]

Today is a day of destiny.

 

I sincerely hope that the people who have the most to lose in all this are the ones who do vote - the poor and the young.

 

My youngest son is currently doing his doctorate at Queen's in Belfast. He tells me the vast majority of his fellow students and colleagues are firmly in the remain camp as am I.

[king12345]

What Germany didn't achieve with weapons 70 odd years ago has been achieved now through politics.

We're doomed...

[tobyjugg2]

Conspiracies - bah humbug

 

I definitely put my cross against :

 

NO - I dont want to leave the EU

not

YES - I want to remain part of the EU.

 

 

Oh - and I wonder how Baron Lawson of Blaby voted

- him being an ex-pat domiciled in France (who apparently shouldn't have a vote (not my viewpoint)) ..

[tobyjugg2]

Threats to their pensions, house prices, employment !

 

I dont think staying or leaving would make Sir Philip Green change his ways - well maybe other than where he hides his tax free money.

[tobyjugg2]

What Germany didn't achieve with weapons 70 odd years ago has been achieved now through politics.

We're doomed...

 

 

 

 

on a more serious note,

Not if Britain gets in there and starts pushing its weight in the right directions.

[fletch70]

What Germany didn't achieve with weapons 70 odd years ago has been achieved now through politics.

We're doomed...

 

I have heard that joke before but remember it wasn't really the German state we fought but Hitler and the Nazi party . It could have been any other state. I do think it unfair to blame current Germans for the warcrimes of, well an Austrian.

[unclebulgaria67]

I have heard that joke before but remember it wasn't really the German state we fought but Hitler and the Nazi party . It could have been any other state. I do think it unfair to blame current Germans for the warcrimes of, well an Austrian.

 

I think that is the problem with some people, who keep harking back to WW2 and how Britain won the war, Churchill our greatest leader etc. The world has moved on and if we want to stop extremists in different countries, it is better to do this as part of an EU.

 

My Dad lost two of his brothers and his family home in London to a flying bomb during WW2. After the War, he served in the British Army in northern Germany guarding the border against the Soviets and helping to rebuild West Germany.

 

You might hate Brussels being involved in UK affairs, but most things you deal with on a daily basis have been decided at Westminster, not Brussels. The newspapers in league with politicians have used the EU as a scape goat to cover up for decisions made in Westminster. Why throw away the progress made in uniting Europe, improving Human Rights/workers rights and spreading western democracy to eastern Europe. Do you want to go back to a divided Europe that may well be worse than now ? How has the EU personally affected you to the extent that you would want the future of the UK to be so uncertain ?

[Old Cogger]

Have the leaflets being delivered helped anyone to make a decision.

 

Noooooooooooooooooo

[fletch70]

I am actually appalled at the way the remain campaign have conducted them selves ( ok and the brevet campaign). It has not been a campaign of facts , arguments and counter arguments it has been just rhetoric. Take the claims about an EU army and Turkey joining the Eu or visa free travel for Turks. Why not explain that these are ideas and that there are many barriers to overcome , many maybe so great they will never be overcome. Why not remind people about the EU Act (2011) that requires a referendum before treaty change. Maybe these would have overcome the genuine concerns of some in the brexit camp.

[silverfox1961]

Having just watched The Brexit Movie, the majority of what was being said resonated with me so I can now say OUT with no remorse. I acknowledge they had a political agenda but the facts presented are inarguable.

 

How is it that a country like Switzerland manages to be so rich when they are out of the EU. Simple. Less regulation, more freedom to choose the markets they want to deal with and a system where people can hold the politicians to account at any time they think right.

 

I want the choice of what white goods I buy, not be restricted to what the EU says. I want to buy a toaster that is safe but not subject to 42 EU laws (according to the Brexit team)

If I wanted to start a business, I would like to do so on my terms and within UK law, not what the EU force upon me. The amount of red tape is restricting the UK's growth.

If the out camp wins, I would hope that the silly EU rules imposed on us would be repealed.

 

One thing that did occur to me. If after Brexit, the UK flourished and grew economically, the EU project would be shown as a sham and other countries may follow suit. That (IMO) is more what they are afraid of. The intelligentsia shown to be no better that the Plebs.

 

Off out to vote now

[snowdragon]

This is what someone posted and tbh I agree , whether it is true or not? I am still undecided and just had a load more leaflets put through the door!

 

 

I can see the pros and cons of both, one thing to remember is if we vote leave and its a bad decision it will take a lot to rejoin whereas if we vote to stay we can always leave at a later date.

[Old Cogger]

re-join = no benefits we get now ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[tobyjugg2]

LOL all this doom and gloom - mind you, understandable given the 'promtion of each sides desires.

 

Lets look at the bright side of a little britain win for Brexit

 

The pound crashes 10%

The upside is

* This will negate the 10% levy imposed on British imports everywhere else so British goods will cost the same abroad

(Less profitable though so wages will have to drop of course)

 

* The lower worth of the pound will only really affect foreign goods, so more desire for British products, so Swedes and turnips will gain value giving a boost to that industry

(but Swedes and Turnips will cost more due to the higher demand)

 

*More Swedes and Turnips eaten improves the british diet, less obesity and diabetes and so less strain on the NHS

(added bonus, privatisation of the health services is less important to a number of people)

 

Even the 4% very wealthy feel the strain a bit and start to have a little understanding of what the 95% of the rest of us have long been suffering. - and get a little worried

(The top 1% are still immune to all this rubbish and just get richer)

 

The pound quickly gets to 1:1 partity wwith the euro and the dollar, making approximate calculations of cost in euros and dollars much easier.

 

House prices in London crash as the wealthy and financial institutions move out of the UK, and the poorer UK companies just move out of London so house prices rise everywhere else as demand increases.

(YAYYYY - out of negative equity at last

- err but where can I buy a cheaper house)

 

No need for expensive HS2 using cheap dumped china monkey metal saving the cash strapped country 60 billion pounds.

What do you mean the money we never really had has gone in bribes already?

 

 

 

As global warning increases with the UK buying whatever cheap crap china wants to sell us today, those of us with houses more than 100 feet above sea level see prices boom.

Peterborough especially as it becomes the seaside resort of choice for the UK's mega-rich.

(Buy a houseboat quick)

 

Russia applies to join the EU, and is welcomed. So no need for an expensive nuclear deterrent

- except those damn EU'ers are our real enemies - buy more nukes

[tobyjugg2]

oh I forgot

European worker migration falls to its lowest ever levels,

but illegal migration from Somalia, Nigeria, Libya, Afghanistan and Pakistan reaches new record levels.

- but they aren't in official statistics anyway, so dont count.

[tobyjugg2]

This is what someone posted and tbh I agree , whether it is true or not? I am still undecided and just had a load more leaflets put through the door!

 

 

I can see the pros and cons of both, one thing to remember is if we vote leave and its a bad decision it will take a lot to rejoin whereas if we vote to stay we can always leave at a later date.

 

 

and that really should be the tie breaker for those undecided snowdragon.

[citizenB]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/the-brexit-contagion-how-france-italy-and-the-netherlands-now-wa/

 

 

Well now, it looks like there are other EU countries that might want to vote on staying/leaving !

 

 

The Brexit contagion: How France, Italy and the Netherlands now want their referendum too

EU leaders fear a string of copycat polls could tear the organisation apart, as leaders come under pressure to emulate David Cameron and hold votes.

 

It came as German business leaders handed a considerable boost to the Leave campaign by saying it would be “very, very foolish” to deny the UK a free trade deal after Brexit.

 

Markus Kerber, the head of the BDI, which represents German industry, said that 1970s-style trade barriers would result in job losses in Germany.