Inside a DCA!

[blue4ever]

Thanks onthebrink you are true to your word

[jster$$$]

I have a query

 

If a debtor has received Deed of Assignment from DCA. does the debtor claim penalty charges from DCA and will they aknowledge the claim and pay up?

 

or

 

Can the DCA return the debt back to OC after DoA?

 

many thanks and great work:D

[onthebrink]

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE COMMENTS AND PMs

 

 

What should I never tell a DCA?

 

We need to first identify what the main options for the OC, and then look at what information they need to determine which option to take.

 

Enforcement actions:

1) Payment plan with OC.

2) Pursue through DCA.

3) Bankruptcy.

4) Write-off the debt on your CRA file.

5) Offer Full & Final Settlement (future date).

6) Offer Full & Final Partial Settlement.

7) County Court Judgement:

- Full settlement of account

- Payment plan set by the court

(if you default on this court judgement then the OC can get an)

a) Warrant of Execution (County Court Bailiffs)

b) Attachment of Earnings.

c) Charging Order.

d) Third Party Debt Order.

e) Administration Order (if you have a number of debts less than £5k).

 

 

 

Ok, so that’s mostly what they can do.

 

What information do they already have?

 

Put simply, anything you told then on your original application

 

Name, including maiden name.

Address

DoB

Employer

Salary

Bank details

Dependents

Debts (at the time of application)

Accommodation

Etc.

 

 

So what’s really important for them to know, and what should I not tell them?

 

As I stated in an earlier post, the DCA is not just interested in getting your cash. It’s also interested in building a picture of your Assets and Liabilities.

 

Assets

(an item of value, from Houses to motors, from shares to washing machines)

 

Are you a homeowner?

Are you in rented, unfurnished accommodation?

Do you own a car.

If your debt was a loan, what was the loan for? A car? Home improvements?

 

Was it to buy an assets?:o

 

If your debt was a credit card, what did you buy in the last two years? White goods? Furniture? TVs? DVD players?

 

The more assets the DCA knows you have the more likely the OC will pursue a CCJ: They know that if you fail to pay they can instruct the county court bailiffs to seize your ASSETS.

 

 

DON’T TELL THE DCA ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT YOU OWN.

 

 

 

Liabilities

(debts you have, both secured and unsecured)

 

Mortgage (amount, to whom) –

Secured Loans (amount, to whom) -

Loans (how many, How much)

Credit Cards (how many, How much)

Etc.

 

 

DON’T TELL THE DCA ABOUT YOUR SECURED LOANS

 

 

 

Your financial position:

 

Income

If you are employed and earn a good salary you must be aware that the DCA will want you to prove you salary details. (They will request your last three pay slips)

 

Why?

 

They will find out

who you work for,

payroll number,

NI number,

tax paid in year (very important to the DCA for Bankruptcy),

your personal allowance,

if you have any other court payments (this appears in the section for Tax/Ni as a SLR/CO payment),

Pension contributions (Bankruptcy (depending on age)).

 

And this will also open the option of an Attachment of Earnings (AoE) if you default o the CCJ.

 

NOTE: An AoE is not set by you, it will be determined by the court and based upon the Statement of Affairs (budget) you provide the court. If you have surplus income above the ‘prescribed limit’ the court will determine what monthly payment should be taken directly from your salary (and your employer can also add £1 for paying it to the court! Cheek of it).

 

Benefit payments confirm you are living on a low income and will help support your case for reduced payments and even potential write-off.

 

But don’t tell the DCA about your Working tax credits and certainly not about your Children’s tax credits.

 

Expenditure

Don’t include ‘luxuries’, like Sky TV, or Broadband, personal pensions, they will remove this amounts from your budget and demand a higher pro-rata payment.:o

 

When they review your budget or SoA, it is a certainty they will refuse to accept your offer unless they receive your payslips, and proof to support your highest expenditure items.

 

HINT: Provide them but blank out all key information except the monetary values (but do blank out the tax paid to date).

 

Only give enough information that allows then to determine your offer of payment is realistic.

 

 

Always remember…………………..

 

The DCA wants to build a full picture of everything you own and owe.

 

This allows the OC to decide if they should go for a CCJ where their options of enforcement are significantly extended if you default.

 

NOTE: If they identify you own a home they WILL check with the land registry to ascertain how much its worth (based on the most recent sale of a similar property in your street) and compare this with the outstanding mortgage balance on your CRA file. This will show whether you are in positive or negative equity. Having secured loans on the home will also enter the calculation as they may reduce any ‘profit’ after the mortgage is paid. The DCA will determine the likely success of a charging order and advise the OC to start CCJ proceedings.

 

YOU SHOULD NEVER INFORM THE DCA YOUR HOME IS UP FOR SALE. THEY WILL PROCEED WITH A CCJ IMMEDIATELY.

 

One step that the DCA can advise is to file a petition for bankruptcy.

 

They would do this if their chances of recovery of the debt, even through a CCJ, are zero.

 

If they know you are in employment, have a large liability of debt, assets that can be sold, but offering nothing to reduce the amount outstanding, then bankruptcy is a realistic option. This is why you should not tell them how much tax you have paid in year.

 

NOTE: When you are a bankrupt the Official Receiver will reclaim all the tax you have paid during the year, and put you on a NT Code (No Tax) through your employer, and you have to pay the Official Receiver the tax you would normally pay. Also, if you have a surplus over expenditure and it is higher than £100 month you will have an IPA (payment Arrangement) of 50% of surplus income for 3 years.

 

Both these procedures could prove a better recovery option for the OC. But it is only a realistic possibility if YOU give them the information to make the decision.

 

[ananya]

Absolutely fascinating, thank you so much OTB

[ginnever]

Hope this helps.

 

There is no credit limit on the copy of the CCA & definately no dates I haven't been sent even a copy of the default notice either.

 

Not sure how to go about trying to sort of defend this as I am in court on the 31.03.08 with the final charging order hearing.

 

Giving me 5 minutes...

[freedom-from-sanity]

I suggested this idea half in jest a few weeks ago.....

 

what is to stop every one of us from getting together and starting our own DCA and buying up all our debts for 12p in the pound and literally throwing them in the bin....?

You can cout me in, sounds like a plan.

[noomill060]

subbing. OTB rocks..

[The GodMother]

You can cout me in, sounds like a plan.

 

 

same ere

[blue4ever]

onthebrink i would appresiate if you could look at this tread and please advise me on any action i could take,thank you once again for your time and effect you have put in to your thread FANTASTIC

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/133190-door-collector-debt.html

[pmhcfc]

OTB - Can you tell us what you know about debts being purchased (by DCA from OC) under the Law of Property Act.

[itsamomentintime]

i wonder whether the DCA trolls on this site are enjoying this thread as much as me.....

[elizabeth1]

i wonder whether the DCA trolls on this site are enjoying this thread as much as me.....

 

 

 

 

 

Somehow I doubt it very much

 

 

This thread is excellent - well done!

[vengeancedemon]

I understand the concept of OC passing to an outside DCA and sensing ( or not!) a letter of advisement and the DCA swnding a "welcome " letter but what about, for example HBoS sending to Bloody Orrible and Stupid, their in houes comedy act without any of theis correspondance, how does this configure in the CCA section 77-78 requirement?

[onthebrink]

I have a query

 

If a debtor has received Deed of Assignment from DCA. does the debtor claim penalty charges from DCA and will they aknowledge the claim and pay up?

 

or

 

Can the DCA return the debt back to OC after DoA?

 

many thanks and great work:D

 

It really depends on the clauses within the deed of assignment. It is not uncommon for the DCA to add two clauses. One that stipulates if there is any pre-assignment dispute or disagreement the OC will be resonsible for resolving this before action restarts. The second is that if any monies have been paid to the DCA they will be with held until the dispute/disagreement is resolved or used to cover costs lost by not pursing the debt.

 

So in answer to your questions.

 

1) Start with the DCA and they should pass it to the OC.

2) Yes.

[onthebrink]

OTB - Can you tell us what you know about debts being purchased (by DCA from OC) under the Law of Property Act.

 

I'll return to this tomorrow because it's complex.8)

 

I think the DCA staff are getting their own back.....The thread rating has gone from 5 to 4......

[moggieb]

Hi,OTB-your thread is very helpful & much appreciated. An opportunity to see the other side of the coin so to speak;). Can I just ask..........if we send a CCA to a DCA and they ask us to contact the OC directly,why would they do this?

[onthebrink]

OTB - Can you tell us what you know about debts being purchased (by DCA from OC) under the Law of Property Act.

 

Happy weekend to you all.

 

I was rather tired when I saw you question and didn't have the brain power to answer. However,

 

The Property Act dates back to 1925 and has had many ammendments and additions over the years. So ensure you don't just use the original Act as you base for research.

 

Basically:

 

Normally the purchase or assignment of a debt in relation to the Property Act is because there are complexities to the 'asset' that is owned by the debtor. The OC may have identified 'property' which could include land, 'or that could be reasonable expected to be owned' by the debtor, that cannot be easily sold, or where there are joint owners not all agreeing to the sale. It may also be because there are clauses, restrictions or covenants on the property owned.

 

The DCA would act on behalf of the OC because these 'difficulties' can turn the secured loan into an unsecured loan in all but name. Put simply, the secured loan gives the right to the lender on default to seize and sell the property to recover their monies. Any lawfully restrictions that may prevent that from happening can reduce enforcement powers and thus the debt is sold or assigned to a DCA under the 1925 Propertry Act.

 

I know this is not a 'full' picture but the Act is massive. If you have a 'scenario' you would like me to comment on then happy to help.

 

But as an example, this was a case that first brought the 1925 Act into the world of the DCA.

 

 

The Rogue Debtor......

During 1993-95 a Rogure debtor undertook an exercise to purchase, via a series of secured mortgages from a number of financial institutions, a number of ex-Ministry of Defence properties on a leasehold basis at the insistence of the MoD.

The debtor defaulted on the mortgage repayments and enforcement action was commenced to recovery the outstanding balances via sale of the properties.

The debtor refused to return the keys to the propeties and enacted a little know clause under the Property Act.

The clause sat within the section ' Power to Discharge restrictive covenants' in relation to property designated as for use by 'naval, military or air force purposes'.

What the rogue debtor had identified as an 'opportunity' was in the fact that the MoD wanted to raise capital during the Options for Change review by selling property/land while retaining freehold rights to charge peppercorn rents. The arguement put forward, and subsequently won, was that although he 'owned' the property he did not own the freehold and thus it was still under 'the power of a restricted covenant' as detailed in the Act.

Also, although the mortgagee held the right to the property, they were prevented from selling the property while the leasehold arrangement or peppercorn rent between the debtor/MoD remained in force, and while the property was still within the 'power' of the MoD.

 

It pays to know the law.

 

Today the sale of ex-MoD land is often done via Auction (cash purchases, no mortgage), or where that is impossible the restricted covenants are either removed or you have to waiver the right of restricted covenants.

 

Did any of you buy an ex-MoD property during 1991-95 on a leasehold peppercorn rent arrangement.

 

Just a thought.....

[onthebrink]

Hi,OTB-your thread is very helpful & much appreciated. An opportunity to see the other side of the coin so to speak;). Can I just ask..........if we send a CCA to a DCA and they ask us to contact the OC directly,why would they do this?

 

This simular to the answer I gave in post 166.

 

The DCA has not been assigned, or requested, the right to provide that information and so you need to go directly to the OC.

 

What you should ensure is that the DCA puts your account on hold to give you the opportunities to log you request/dispute with the OC. If they refuse inform them that they, as the OCs representative, have failed to comply with your request and have a responsibility under the OFT guidlines to 'act reasonably' and allow you to put your request to the OC without enforcement action continuing. Request a 7 day hold. So go on, go get the phone

 

Send your CCA request, recorded delivery, to the OC. Ensure you modify the letter to point out the original request declined by the DCA.

 

 

I hope this helps.

[dave]

hats off to you my friend-you are a fine addition to the forum!

 

I second this. I'm thinking of making this thread a 'sticky', purely for the excellent information and advice.

[tomterm8]

Erm, HSBC already stuck it;)

[ScarletPimpernel]

This simular to the answer I gave in post 166.

 

The DCA has not been assigned, or requested, the right to provide that information and so you need to go directly to the OC.

 

What you should ensure is that the DCA puts your account on hold to give you the opportunities to log you request/dispute with the OC. If they refuse inform them that they, as the OCs representative, have failed to comply with your request and have a responsibility under the OFT guidlines to 'act reasonably' and allow you to put your request to the OC without enforcement action continuing. Request a 7 day hold. So go on, go get the phone

 

Send your CCA request, recorded delivery, to the OC. Ensure you modify the letter to point out the original request declined by the DCA.

 

 

 

Just to make things complicated, then...

 

Under s.175 of the CCA 1974, the DCA is acting as an agent, and is deemed to be under a contractual obligation to pass a s.77/78 request to the OC. How can the DCA evade this responsibility?

 

If the debt is assigned, in an absolute assignment then under the CCA they have the rights and responsibilities of the OC, as defined by s.189.

 

Given that we are discussing agreements regulated by the CCA 1974, I don't see how an DCA can avoid dealing with a s.77/78 request by quoting the LOP.

[Michael Browne]

I'm thinking of making this thread a 'sticky', purely for the excellent information and advice.

 

Main posts are also collated here:

Debt Collectors: On the Inside - Consumer Wiki

[slc79]

Totally agree with general consensus that this is a great thread - speaking for myself as new victim of a DCA who claim that I have a catalogue debt of which I totally deny any knowledge. I have been at current address for 6 years, 2 years previously in Australia, and can say -hand on heart - that I have never in this time ordered nor received any goods.

 

It's suspicious that DCA sent a letter to my current address to a person unknown to me a month earlier and four weeks letter, lo and behold, they send an almost identical letter to my name. Are they fishing the electoral roll for names to send out letters for unsubstantiated debts? My mum died a week earlier and after I had just said goodbye to her at the funeral directors before the funeral, I came home to this most unwelcome threat. I also care for a heavily dependent disabled child. However, despite a very stressful time, I send a letter (gleaned from National Debtline) denying the debt a couple of days later, recorded delivery, which I checked they received. DCA sent letter 2 days later saying they are unable to trace response. So will send duplicate of my first letter. http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/temp/6939_33771.pdf

 

What are chances of them dropping case?

[onthebrink]

Just to make things complicated, then...

 

Under s.175 of the CCA 1974, the DCA is acting as an agent, and is deemed to be under a contractual obligation to pass a s.77/78 request to the OC. How can the DCA evade this responsibility?

Interesting point that raises a very interesting DCA weakness

 

By the letter of the law (CCA 1974):

 

'where under the Act a person is deemed to receive a notice or payment as agent of the creditor or owner under a regulated agreement, he shall....etc'

 

The DCA will process and enforce any debt under the belief that it is a 'regulated agreement'.

 

They can however, when provided with a 'notice' (as it is described within the Act (i think so from memory)) from the debtor, which they determine could lead to a dispute, argue that there was some doubt as to whether the debt is a 'regulated agreement', and because of that doubt the debtor should contact the OC direct.

They would claim to any OFT investigation that the notice they received from the debtor had given them due course to question whether the debt was an agreement that was a 'regulated agreement' and, because there was doubt, they had stopped or suspended acting as the agent for the OC until the OC complied with the request and the DCA were also provided with the information (documentation) the debtor was sent.

 

Such an stand would only be upheld by the OFT if they put the debtors account on hold. Hence my advice that the OP needed to confirm the account was on hold.

 

It's a stalling tactic that should be by-passed.

 

If the debt is assigned, in an absolute assignment then under the CCA they have the rights and responsibilities of the OC, as defined by s.189.

Yes. But if they have doubt over the agreements validity that 'assignment' is suspended.

 

Given that we are discussing agreements regulated by the CCA 1974, I don't see how an DCA can avoid dealing with a s.77/78 request by quoting the LOP.

 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Please bare in mind others that are reading this. The DCA actions are not confirming it is not 'regulated' or 'valid' just that they are not sure of either in order to prevent the debtor from pursuing the request from the DCA. Well that's their stance anyway.

 

If this happens to you, you could take 3 main actions:

 

1) Make a formal complaint to the regulated bodies that the DCA is in breach of the Act.

2) Send the request to the OC

3) Both

 

Likely outcomes:

1) The DCA will put forward a defence as I stated and this will be agreed as 'prudent'.

2) The OC must comply.

 

Edit point: ScarletPimpernel is correct in what he is saying to be fair. They are 'in breach' of the Act. But the DCA know they only have to justify their actions to the investigating officer if you make a complaint. Not you.

[fuzzybobble]

Amazing Thread. Makes for very interesting reading, and very useful advice too.

Deffo a click on the scales from me to Onthebrink.

 

I have a few questions regarding the things you should and shouldn't tell DCA's

I'm currently on Job Seekers Allowance, as a result I have 4 debts that I'm still trying to bury with non CCA compliance.

 

I made a point of telling them I didn't own property. (moved back with parents 6 months ago.), I have no car, (I do, but they have no way of knowing from any info they may have and car is now registered in my dads name anyway as I "sold" it to him for a quid. .) On the so called "agreements" for my loans it says it was for consolidation of existing debts, the only fly in the ointment was £2k on a credit card, but I didn't actually buy much in the way of material things with it, most of it went on binge drinking, and enjoying life. Ahh the good old days.

 

So if I play it dumb and tell them nothing else I should be safer from a CCJ than I thought I was before starting to read this excellent thread?