Inside a DCA!

[onthebrink]

As far as any DCA is concerned the lack of a 'valid' CCA has to be proven in court.

 

When you request a CCA what you are trying to do as the debtor is prove there is no valid CCA, this then means the debt is 'non-existent' and thus the default has to be removed from the CRA records.

 

HOWEVER

 

the only way of achieving such an outcome is for the creditor/DCA to take you to court via a CCJ in order to pass judgement. The court WILL NOT accept a judgement if you, the debtor, contest/defend that no valid CCA is in operation, and thus the debt does not exist and so cannot be enforced, and win.

 

But the creditor/DCA has to take you to court in order for you to win.

 

If they know there is no valid CCA it is very unlikely they will take you to court. They will instruct the DCA to 'pursue the debt' untill the DCA get fed up.

 

Having no valid CCA just removes the CCJ option from the process.

 

Now the DCAs know that, but sending you letters and calling you 3 times a day is also a part of the process that can only be stopped if you have proven the debt is 'non-existent'. Which you won't be able to because the creditor needs to issue a CCJ.

[BeauBrummie]

Interesting thread. Haven't read it all but so far so good!

 

I saw the original thread come up this morning from onthebrink and I have not been able to leave it alone since. Great stuff.

[Movingon]

As far as any DCA is concerned the lack of a 'valid' CCA has to be proven in court.

 

When you request a CCA what you are trying to do as the debtor is prove there is no valid CCA, this then means the debt is 'non-existent' and thus the default has to be removed from the CRA records.

 

HOWEVER

 

the only way of achieving such an outcome is for the creditor/DCA to take you to court via a CCJ in order to pass judgement. The court WILL NOT accept a judgement if you, the debtor, contest/defend that no valid CCA is in operation, and thus the debt does not exist and so cannot be enforced, and win.

 

But the creditor/DCA has to take you to court in order for you to win.

 

If they know there is no valid CCA it is very unlikely they will take you to court. They will instruct the DCA to 'pursue the debt' untill the DCA get fed up.

 

Having no valid CCA just removes the CCJ option from the process.

 

Yes, but if you are persuing Default Removal then you can take THEM to court - the onus is then upon THEM to prove that a CCA exists and that therefore the Default was correctly served.

[lickthewallfatboy]

As far as any DCA is concerned the lack of a 'valid' CCA has to be proven in court.

 

When you request a CCA what you are trying to do as the debtor is prove there is no valid CCA, this then means the debt is 'non-existent' and thus the default has to be removed from the CRA records.

 

HOWEVER

 

the only way of achieving such an outcome is for the creditor/DCA to take you to court via a CCJ in order to pass judgement. The court WILL NOT accept a judgement if you, the debtor, contest/defend that no valid CCA is in operation, and thus the debt does not exist and so cannot be enforced, and win.

 

But the creditor/DCA has to take you to court in order for you to win.

 

If they know there is no valid CCA it is very unlikely they will take you to court. They will instruct the DCA to 'pursue the debt' untill the DCA get fed up.

 

Having no valid CCA just removes the CCJ option from the process.

 

so the upshot is,if you know you're in the right,and as long as you are prepared for a DCA to wipe out half a rainforest writing to you in an ultimately fruitless quest,they will keep doing so until they get bored?

[onthebrink]

so the upshot is,if you know you're in the right,and as long as you are prepared for a DCA to wipe out half a rainforest writing to you in an ultimately fruitless quest,they will keep doing so until they get bored?

 

Yes.

 

And that can continue even after the creditor has washed his hands of the debt by selling it to a DCA for 12p in the £.

[rory32]

The debts are about 8 years old. Would it be beneficial to ask for the CCA's?

It's always beneficial when negotiating to know whether there is a copy of the agreement or not. At 8 years old there is a reasonable possibility that they don't have a copy, depending on the creditor. If they don't have a copy of the agreement then in my experience they will take whatever they can get. Part of the negotiating process is that you don'y immediately up your offer once it has been rejected. You want to make it clear that this is a one time only offer and that you only have a certain amount of money that you can pay - no more. DCA's like lump sums rather than dealing with token payments for years and years.

[tifo]

Having no valid CCA just removes the CCJ option from the process.

 

But we need a way to remove the default option as well.

 

This way, the DCA is still punishing us despite breaking the law many many times.

[tifo]

And that can continue even after the creditor has washed his hands of the debt by selling it to a DCA for 12p in the £.

 

Even lower.

 

Cabot has been quoted as buying debts at 3p - 10p in the £.

[onthebrink]

Yes, but if you are persuing Default Removal then you can take THEM to court - the onus is then upon THEM to prove that a CCA exists and that therefore the Default was correctly served.

 

Agreed, but that has nothing to do with the DCA because it would be the creditor that issued the default notice, or the DCA on behalf of the creditor.

 

and this thread was to highlight how DCA operate/think/process etc.

[ScarletPimpernel]

The CCA 1974 is quite clear - if a creditor (or, courtesy of s.175, his agent), is in default of a s.77/78 request, he may not enforce the agreement, and nor may he demand payment. OCs and DCAs seem to forget this.

 

Sadly, whilst TS fail to prosecute for the summary criminal offence, and the OFT stand idly by, the banks and DCAs will continue to do it because they know they get away with it.

[lickthewallfatboy]

I suggested this idea half in jest a few weeks ago.....

 

what is to stop every one of us from getting together and starting our own DCA and buying up all our debts for 12p in the pound and literally throwing them in the bin....?

[tifo]

The CCA 1974 is quite clear - if a creditor (or, courtesy of s.175, his agent), is in default of a s.77/78 request, he may not enforce the agreement, and nor may he demand payment. OCs and DCAs seem to forget this.

 

Yes, and a default is a form of enforcement of the (not valid) agreement. And they keep sending letter after letter demanding payment or else.

[onthebrink]

Also, to have a default removed requires YOU paying to take them to court (although if you win you can reclaim).

 

But in truth how many people would or could take that step. 1%, 5%?

 

From 1000s of defaulted accounts.

 

And the creditors and DCAs know it.

[tifo]

what is to stop every one of us from getting together and starting our own DCA and buying up all our debts for 12p in the pound and literally throwing them in the bin....?

 

Because we would be losing 12p for every £1 and the bank won't sell the debt to us.

 

Why pay 12p/£1 when they don't have a valid agreement to receive anything?

[tifo]

Also, to have a default removed requires YOU paying to take them to court (although if you win you can reclaim).

 

But in truth how many people would or could take that step. 1%, 5%?

 

From 1000s of defaulted accounts.

 

And the creditors and DCAs know it.

 

Not many .... we have the worry of losing our hard earned money.

[lickthewallfatboy]

why can't we buy up our own debts-if you owe £1000 and buy it for £125 odd and trash it,you're winning.....everyone pool the money needed

 

is that being simplistic?

[onthebrink]

why can't we buy up our own debts-if you owe £1000 and buy it for £125 odd and trash it,you're winning.....everyone pool the money needed

 

is that being simplistic?

 

 

You can......offer 12p in the £ and see if they will accept. I know one thing, the DCA wont agree.

[lickthewallfatboy]

You can......offer 12p in the £ and see if they will accept. I know one thing, the DCA wont agree.

 

I wasn't meaning on an individual basis...I meant approaching them(creditors) as a DCA and buying them up under the auspices of a DCA.If they'll sell them to other DCA's for that kind of money,they'll sell them to any DCA

[The GodMother]

Hi ON the brink and thankyou for the useful information.

 

Just a couple of questions for you to answer. I understand if you dont want to answer them and i will not be naming the DCA or OC in person.

 

1) Was Persued by a DCA who is well known on here for a debt that was in dispute with the OC as the OC had lost money/ claimed the money was never recieved.

 

On countless times the OC and DCA was sent the evidence of the payments and yet the OC and DCA refused to do anything about it and even tho the DCA had recieved the paperwork they were constanly saying they had not and constantly refusing to accept the account was in dispute. Now they have been threatened with the issue of court procedings against them the DCA have passed the account back to the OC.

 

Why are some DCAs refusing to accept that the account was in dispute and chasing a disputed debt againsts OFT guidelines?

[ginnever]

What do you make of this as I feel they have failed to supply the information requested under CPR

 

I requested information under the CPR rules & today I have received a this response from CL saying-

 

We have been in contact with our solicitors HC who have advised that we are not obligded to provide this information and would advise that the particulars of claim detailed om the cc form should be sufficent to allow you to respond accordingly.

 

Having said that we have been in contact with opur predecessors GE money & have been able to obtain certain information which is enclosed herewith.

 

They have sent a copy of the credit agreement CC act 1974 page 1 of 3

Which is signed by me, however no date against my signature,

A signature for GE money which you can't tell whose signed and again no date.

 

A copy of the deed of assignment 5 pages dated on the front the 16th May 2007 a scribbled signature on the back. This is the first time I have ever seen one of these...

Also a set of copy statements ranging from Mar 02 to May 07 however not complete as there are some statements missing...

 

How would you proceed from here as CL have not complied fully with my request under CPR?

 

I am due in court on the 31.03.08

thanks

[onthebrink]

Hi ON the brink and thankyou for the useful information.

 

Just a couple of questions for you to answer. I understand if you dont want to answer them and i will not be naming the DCA or OC in person.

 

1) Was Persued by a DCA who is well known on here for a debt that was in dispute with the OC as the OC had lost money/ claimed the money was never recieved.

 

On countless times the OC and DCA was sent the evidence of the payments and yet the OC and DCA refused to do anything about it and even tho the DCA had recieved the paperwork they were constanly saying they had not and constantly refusing to accept the account was in dispute. Now they have been threatened with the issue of court procedings against them the DCA have passed the account back to the OC.

 

Why are some DCAs refusing to accept that the account was in dispute and chasing a disputed debt againsts OFT guidelines?

 

Thanks for your question.

 

The honest answer is that it is most likely that the DCA have received assurance from the OC that there is no foundation to the dispute. Any paperwork you subsequently sent them will be noted but passed to the OC.

It is likely (although I do not know for sure) that the OC refused to accept liability for the orginal error and thus asserts the debts is owed.

 

The DCA would continue to pursue the 'debt' on the basis that the assurance they have from the OC overrides your arguement (no matter how legally sound it was). This often continues untill either it is recalled by the OC or the debtor takes legal action (as in your case). The account is then passed back to the OC and more often than not just sent to another DCA.

 

This ping pong game is sadely common within the industry and to be honest, the fault sits with the OC, and any action should be forcefully pursued with them.

 

All DCA will 'process' the debt until such a time when it becomes 'to hot to handle' the they wash then hands of it and pass it back to the OC.

 

On the subject of 'lost paperwork' I am sorry to say this is another common practice. Often, the DCA account manager will read the letter and if that information is already on the file they will just shread you paperwork. When you call to say 'oi, I sent you paperwork' the account manager will not remember and try to confirm a date you sent it. they will then look on the system and see nothing registered around that date. They then state 'nothing was received', which can be bloody frustrating.

But the fact is DCA have a practice of not duplicating information, but as a minimum the account manager should note ' letter received same as note 4 above, etc.' But they don't most of the time.

[tomterm8]

As far as any DCA is concerned the lack of a 'valid' CCA has to be proven in court.

 

When you request a CCA what you are trying to do as the debtor is prove there is no valid CCA, this then means the debt is 'non-existent' and thus the default has to be removed from the CRA records.

 

HOWEVER

 

the only way of achieving such an outcome is for the creditor/DCA to take you to court via a CCJ in order to pass judgement. The court WILL NOT accept a judgement if you, the debtor, contest/defend that no valid CCA is in operation, and thus the debt does not exist and so cannot be enforced, and win.

 

But the creditor/DCA has to take you to court in order for you to win.

 

If they know there is no valid CCA it is very unlikely they will take you to court. They will instruct the DCA to 'pursue the debt' untill the DCA get fed up.

 

Having no valid CCA just removes the CCJ option from the process.

 

Now the DCAs know that, but sending you letters and calling you 3 times a day is also a part of the process that can only be stopped if you have proven the debt is 'non-existent'. Which you won't be able to because the creditor needs to issue a CCJ.

 

Depends how proactive you are. I've won three cases against DCA's on CCA grounds where I brought the DCA to court. it is entirely possible to do.

[onthebrink]

What do you make of this as I feel they have failed to supply the information requested under CPR

 

I requested information under the CPR rules & today I have received a this response from CL saying-

 

We have been in contact with our solicitors HC who have advised that we are not obligded to provide this information and would advise that the particulars of claim detailed om the cc form should be sufficent to allow you to respond accordingly.

 

Having said that we have been in contact with opur predecessors GE money & have been able to obtain certain information which is enclosed herewith.

 

They have sent a copy of the credit agreement CC act 1974 page 1 of 3

Which is signed by me, however no date against my signature,

A signature for GE money which you can't tell whose signed and again no date.

 

A copy of the deed of assignment 5 pages dated on the front the 16th May 2007 a scribbled signature on the back. This is the first time I have ever seen one of these...

Also a set of copy statements ranging from Mar 02 to May 07 however not complete as there are some statements missing...

 

How would you proceed from here as CL have not complied fully with my request under CPR?

 

I am due in court on the 31.03.08

 

thanks

 

I will respond but just need you to confirm what CL is?

 

:-?

[onthebrink]

Depends how proactive you are. I've won three cases against DCA's on CCA grounds where I brought the DCA to court. it is entirely possible to do.

 

I agree its possible, but its not common.

[excel1]

Hi very informative!

My friend has only one debt to a credit dard in default, they have produced no CCA and has been along while so dont expect to see it.

If however he still offers to a full and final aslong as they remove default, are they likely to go for that?