Estimated Bills caused large debt

[conar686]

A friend of mine as just been told by his electricity supplier that they owe £900 accumulated over the last 7 yrs. As his meter has never been read in this time their bills are all estimated by the supplier.

 

This seems a bit unfair, does anyone know if owt can be done?

[conar686]

*Bump*

[2Grumpy]

Look at the other threads around here - they can only bill for 1 years usage now.

 

Get your friend to complain. If they argue, get them to call energywatch on 08459 06 07 08

[Trojan1401]

By law they must physically read a meter every 2 years. May have changed though re above thread. Definately contact energy watch though.

[installspark]

That is true unless the supplier can prove the following:

 

Code of Practice for Accurate Bills

 

Under what circumstances will suppliers agree not to charge customers for

energy used?

If the supplier is at fault, and the customer has not received a bill for more than two

years, then from 1st July 2006 any outstanding amounts that relate to energy consumed

more than two years ago will be cancelled. From July 2007, this will reduce to one year.

For customers on credit payment arrangements, suppliers will not be at fault where they

can demonstrate that they have taken all of the following four actions:

a) Attempted to read the meter at the customer’s premises within the last 24

months within the first year. From July 2007 onwards this will reduce to

within the last 15 months.

b) Provided opportunities for the customer to submit their own meter reading at

any time on any day

c) Ensured that it was clear on the bill that energy consumption had been

estimated

d) Used a system to ensure estimated bills relate to foreseeable actual

consumption (that is, the estimate was based on previous history, where

available, or on average energy consumption for a similar type of property)

Where the customer pays by direct debit, in addition to a) and b) above, the supplier

must be able to demonstrate that it has taken all of the following actions:

. the customer has been correctly set up on their billing system by both taking

deductions from the customer’s bank account and sending statements to them

. within the last 24 months in the first year reducing to 15 months for year 2

onwards it has re-assessed the customer’s direct debit payment to ensure that

the payments are sufficient to meet (either the actual or a reasonable estimate

of) the customer’s energy usage.

 

Now to play Devil's Advocate......

 

Were any bills received in this period, and if not why was this not questioned?

 

If bills were received but estimated, were customer's own reads provided?

 

Essentially this comes down to dual responsibility - the supplier is responsible for billing the account, the customer is responsible to check the suppliers bills are accurate.

[mree]

As long as the bills clearly state that they're estimated, and the meter reading agency the supplier uses have a record of attempting to call at the property, I'm afraid there's not a lot you can do in this case! Your best bet is to follow their complaints procedure first of all, they won't write the bill off but they may reduce it as a gesture of goodwill. Going straight to Energywatch in this instance would only cost you time, as they will want to give the supplier's complaints procedure a chance to resolve the matter before they get involved (although DO go to Energywatch if they won't budge).

 

I'm afraid the 1 year billing rule wouldn't apply in this case - that rule is designed to protect customers who haven't been billed AT ALL for a long period, not those who've been billed incorrectly.

[conar686]

Thanks, one & all, for the advice. I'll get my friend to ask for heir complaints procedure and take it from there.

[whitbywitchuk]

We just had our first bill from NPower after 2 years of ringing and asking why they werent coming. Energywatch actually got them to come and fit a new meter because it was a key meter and overcharging. Is there any way we can get the old info given to energywatch so that we can take NPower to court for not billing us? Maybe we might get some compensation as now we are in a state with outstanding balances due to never knowing what we owed.

But they say they sent the bills and statements for the key meter out and we never have had them, how do you prove something like that? The second meter is a normal meter, but we could compare the prices to the £30 per week ones we got on the key meter, its all a big mess.

cheers

 

Whittersx

[lookinforinfo]

I thought that the meter had to be read at least once within a two year period.

[Clare_L]

It does have to be read at least once in 2 years, but if the supplier can prove they attempted to read the meter in that time, then the billing code does not apply.

[verycatchy7939]

i work for a utility company in it back office and have done so for 28 years.

your electric meter has to be read once every 8 quarters, gas once every 4 quarters.

 

If the company have returned to you 12 month's worth of estimates they are bound by OFGEM to apply compensation units to the account which reflect total compensation for thew whole of the non read period.This is under licence condition 5 and applied via Of gem's late billed policy.

 

Be warned they will throw D10's (data flow) at you - that is a record of no access of the meter reader

 

But stick to your guns you have the weight of law on side

 

If you have any further questions on utility's gas and electric please post them on here and i will answer.

 

I have experience from billing process to collection process and right of entry warrants

[Rio2London]

Hi, after living 3.5 yers in a flat and receiving only estimated bills I was presented with a final charge of £3.100.

 

When the first call was received my wife called Powergen (now e.on) and asked them to check the meter as we could not find it. I now know that it was outside on the hall with public access.

 

E.on did check the meter regularly but never actually charged us based on the readings, they have estimated for more than 3 years.

 

Now they are recalculating the charges to reflect the actual prices, so the 3,100 has gone down to 2,500. Still a massive amount.

 

We are 2 people working full-time and adding 2,500 to the 1,000 we were charged over the period we get a total of £3.500 for 3.5 years that sounds more than others with similar life style and appliances pay.

 

Ultimately I was never warned of my consumption and this has lead to consuming more than I actually would/could or the inability to check for a faulty or misconfigured appliance or meter.

 

I would be very grateful if I could get an opinion of whether e.on has to write down some of the debt or not. I am not refusing to pay and I take responsibility for not having checked the estimated vs. actuals while I was there. I understand that not knowing is not a reason. But surely they have a share of responsibility for knowing and not telling, this is effectively the same as not showing up to read the meter for 3.5 years!

 

Cheers

[verycatchy7939]

if powergen have not used any of the reads supplied by the data collector for that past 3 years you must ask them to consider applying latebilling/back-billing policy to your account. IT means that if they have been not using information presented to them they must under OFGEM guidelines write off all but one year consumption and offer to spread the totally amount left owing over a 3 year period.

But you have to prove this ask E.on subject access request to all notes, bills and data flows that are kept on there system.All so ask them to supply you with copies of all data flows numbered d10, d4. d86 and d146.

 

from d86 you can get your start read.

D10 is your normal cyclic mete reading

d4 is list of failed to read meter reading

d146 is meter change details.

 

Get this and compare all your d10 to there bills they have provided if they not used the readings u have got them and can force implementation of the back billing policy. It takes awhile to do this but utility d10's are easy to read, once you have this info pm me thought this forum and i will tell how to read the d10.

Down let them put you off just keep pushing till you get ya data

[Clare_L]

Did they say why they didnt use the readings out of interest? They have already admitted that the meter had been read but readings ignored? If the DC has been reading the meter but the readings have been thrown out and not used then this will come under Operational Loss which is part of the billing code, ie the utility company have got you into debt unnecessarily when the readings had already been supplied. As Verycatchy has already stated, in this case they will only be able to backbill one year. Did you ever call them and provide your own readings at any point by any chance?

[Rio2London]

Hi Verycatchy and Clare, thanks for replying!

 

I have been escalated to the manager's manager now as e.on revised the bill based on the actual readings and offered me a 15% discount for full payment instead of 36 installments.

 

I honestly think they have offered me nothing because recalculating based on the actuals is the least they could do and they are likely to loose 15% or more whenever they sell the 36-month-installment debt to a debt collection firm.

 

I don't want to be unreasonable and I would like to settle, but if OFGEM has defined that in this kind of dispute the border line of responsibility to the customer stops at 12 months then that's what e.on should be offering.

 

We have never read the meter while we were in the property. The first and last readings were made by the lettings agency. My wife called e.on when our first bill arrivecd and asked them to check the meter because we could not find it (I now know that it was behind a door on the hallway that required a key that anyone can get on a hardware shop). In any case e.on agreed to make the readings and they actually did it regularly. The reason they never charged me based oin the readings is because there was a change on the meter right before I moved in and the serial number didn't match the number in their system.

 

I don't think e.on did it on purpose, and I certainly didn't get into this mess on purpose either, but it is staggering to see that they will not offer what has been defined by ofgen. I've raised the backbilling regulation with them and they said it didn't apply to me and that I would loose any appeal.

 

The manager helping me was very friendly and nice and perhaps she just can't offer me anything better but this does not mean I have to accept it.

 

Thanks a million for your inputs and I will post whatever happens. I will request all the data that verycatchy suggested but they have already admitted their fault on not using the readings.

 

Take care

[Clare_L]

Hi

 

Unfortunately, Eon are right, the billing code would not apply in this case then. If the distribution did not notify Eon of the change of meter, they would not have known so could only send estimated bills based on the previous occupants consumption. Did they ever write and ask you for meter readings? Normally they will send a letter if the bill has been estimated for a long period of time.

[verycatchy7939]

afraid e.on are hiding behind there data collectors.But they have duty to provide you with an accurate bill , which they have not done.So i would still do the SAR for your records and still write and complain and if they still stay the same take them to the electricity supply ombudsman for a ruling.The energy companies are scared stiff of the ombudsman because each time they use it they have to pay a fee.

At the end of the day it's e.on's fault because they appoint there data collectors and there is a case in law " Newcastle borough council v npower 2003" that ruled that the energy companies are responsible for all 3 party actions weather it be there data collectors or debt agents( Licence condition 19)

So push it and use. this ruling and they have to appliy back billing policy to the account.

the key to all this though is the SAR and how you d10's and d4's look in comaprision to your bills.Keep going pay them an agreed amount and see where this goes.

[mwacuk]

Nah I hear the whole accounts been estimated for years sob story all the time. I would have given you 12 months to pay by dd, nothing else, and nor would my manager. And im sure ofgem will agree. Ive never come across an meter that has a larger than 12 month gap between D4s (failed reader attempts) Yes all bills clearly state they are estimated so if you couldnt/refused to provide access to meter readers and never bothered reading your meter youonly have yourself to blame. If a meter isnt read for 18 months we at ******* will try to contact you which again has obviously failed here.

 

One useful point i have for you is to make sure your catch-up bill is spread out if your prices have increased at any point during the period that has been estimated.

 

Cheers

[mattlamb]

I work as a meter-reader in Norfolk. Maybe playing devils advocate here, but I suspect that some of the people who end up being undercharged for electric/gas because of no readings being obtained, refuse to allow a meter-reader access to read their meter. Only came across someone the other day living on the edge of the Norfolk Broads, after posting a call-back card through her letterbox the previous day because she wasn;t in. She claimed that I called too early in the morning (weekday morning at 8.30!) and said she had to go to work soon. Contradicting herself there then! I did point out politely that I tended to call quite early in the morning on call-backs so I specifically catch people at home before they go to work. She said "you're not reading it" and closed her front-door! I ask you, some people. She clearly was not in a rush to get to work. She even opened the door to me initially as I was walking down her driveway (I hadn;t even got to her front-door, let alone knocked on the door).

 

I definitely agree with the previous poster that some people are asking for problems in the future. There should be laws introduced to prevent this type of unacceptable behaviour from a minority of people. They are trying to get away with paying less than they should - this is basically robbery to all extents and purposes.

[EnidanX1972]

i work for a utility company in it back office and have done so for 28 years.

your electric meter has to be read once every 8 quarters, gas once every 4 quarters.

 

If the company have returned to you 12 month's worth of estimates they are bound by OFGEM to apply compensation units to the account which reflect total compensation for thew whole of the non read period.This is under licence condition 5 and applied via Of gem's late billed policy.

 

Be warned they will throw D10's (data flow) at you - that is a record of no access of the meter reader

 

But stick to your guns you have the weight of law on side

 

If you have any further questions on utility's gas and electric please post them on here and i will answer.

 

I have experience from billing process to collection process and right of entry warrants

 

Hi verycatchy7939

 

Would it be possible to private message you before I put my query online to avoid too much info being given out?

Thanks Enidan

[verycatchy7939]

EnidanX1972 p m any time you lie i will try to help

[verycatchy7939]

Nah I hear the whole accounts been estimated for years sob story all the time. I would have given you 12 months to pay by dd, nothing else, and nor would my manager. And im sure ofgem will agree. Ive never come across an meter that has a larger than 12 month gap between D4s (failed reader attempts) Yes all bills clearly state they are estimated so if you couldnt/refused to provide access to meter readers and never bothered reading your meter youonly have yourself to blame. If a meter isnt read for 18 months we at ******* will try to contact you which again has obviously failed here.

 

One useful point i have for you is to make sure your catch-up bill is spread out if your prices have increased at any point during the period that has been estimated.

 

Cheers

 

it seems we have someone who knows little about how the industry works! you sound like sum kind of call centre half trained expert.You should be careful about giveing wrong advise.No wonder the industry's in such a mess.

[ozzywizard]

Ive never come across an meter that has a larger than 12 month gap between D4s (failed reader attempts)

 

Well there is a fact, a meter will not show D4's, A D4 is a process not a meter function so a meter will never show either way.

 

I really gotta agree with Verycatchy, you are working from a script with very little knowledge, this is not a comment to judge your experience is is a fact based on the poor wording of your post.

 

I recognise your wording from the scripts I have previously trained out and managed my teams to ensure they stick to it.

 

Do not ever assume what your manager will or wont do, they have to follow the law and this is in place to protect consumers and your company will have teams set up to deal with these issues and they will rebill and refund once correct excalations are in place or they can and will get heavy fines, you are on a front line call centre team so you will have to follow a script regardless if what is right or wrong and are only taught what you need to be.

 

Bit of advise for you, never use termonology like "sob story" every person you speak too is an individual and a real person with possible families are circumstances, scripts are good as a guideline but each person is unique in their own way and should be assessed based on there own account which is not always straight forward.

 

Just because you have never seen estimations running over 12 months does not meen it does not happen, trust me your company will deal with thousands of these a day, it does happen and is very common and over 40 per cent is meters outside the property that are easily accessible.

 

One more tip, dont use the word ovbiously, nothing is ovbious in the real world.

 

My experience comes from being team manager at British gas and team manager from Powergen on a specialized team.

[verycatchy7939]

just to let everyone know i have had 29 years industry experience in various Senior management roles at what is now Scottish and southern and Scottish power. I stared as a clerical assistant in the old civil service day's.

D4 being missed are common hundreds of them have been missed greater that 12 months.And we wont go in to the Siemens data hole from 1995 to 1999 when they all all the prepayment meter payment are reading data was lost. The industry i love is in a mess and it takes place like this to help get our companies back on track.So if u got any silly advice keep it to your self please.

[nottslad]

Ask the section manager (the manager's manager) to set the complaint to deadlock. This way it will be escalated to the Ombudsman who will most likely rule that the spirit of the Billing Code be applied