Ingeus

[Masso]

Yeah, I’ve found myself a job!!!

 

Only part time mind, but it’s a start I suppose. Just a part time delivery job that I found myself online...

Now I'm in a situation where I’m unsure what to do. Ingeus have done nothing for me as mentioned on previous posts. I don’t want Ingeus to take any credit for me finding this job on my own.

 

As mentioned by other people I might fill in my book with signing off due to travelling or something similar. I have an appointment with Ingeus in 7-8 days time. Do you think I should phone them and tell them I will no longer be needing their help? Or should I just not turn up?

 

The thing that worries me is if I sign off and take the job, I want clarification from someone that Ingeus won’t get any money!!! Because I will have to sort out my forms ect to give to my new employer.

 

I take it that Ingeus only know if you’ve got a job if you tell them, or the job centre tells them? And that Inland Revenue know nothing about anything...

 

Correct me if I’m wrong.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Masso

[flumps1976]

The only pit fall that I can also see is that if you qualify for the payment of job grant and 4 weeks run on of housing benefit aqnd tax credits then do you really want to risk losing those? If you aren't bothered about losing that money then by all means declare any other reason for ending your claim and as posted before the JCP will only disclose the reason to the provider as the one you give for ending your claim.

The figure of a maximum of £14700 that the provider can claim is for the client groups that will find more barriers in the way of securing long term employment (such as those who have a disability) and the provider is only paid this sum if the remain the the long term employment for the 2 year period that they would otherwise have spent with the provider.

[Masso]

Thanks for your response...

I still live at home with my parents so I won’t lose anything other than my job seekers when I sign off. I’m looking forward to getting back into work and I congratulate myself on finding the job. Just the thought of my Advisor (Dan) to take any credit makes me feel sick!

 

I’m attending the job centre today for my last sign, and I shall fill in my booklet to hand in to them. I start my job next Monday, and I have an appointment with Ingeus on the Wednesday. I don’t think I will turn up for it, plus I will be at work so I couldn’t anyway. (LAUGHS)

 

I reckon my advisor will try to contact me and ask why I didn’t turn up. That would be the most the advisor would have done for me. He never called me nor did he help in anyway. I actually received more help from my job centre. At least they actually sent me possible jobs in the post from time to time, and did a job search every 2 weeks.

 

All Ingeus did was print off 5-10 jobs from the job centre website, but never actually spoke about the actually job. The job centre gave info regarding the job in question and actually spoke about it ect.

[means2anend]

I spoke with someone I recognised at the 3 month New Deal attendance centres before it was scrapped.She has been referred to Ixion...the sub-contractors for Ingeus and said that she needs to see them once a week to show what she has been doing...We then discussed wheter this was better than going 3 months continually..and she prefers this 'flexibility'....The advisor did not turn up and missed their appointment:roll:

 

There appears to be no difference in the procedures for finding work between what we were/are already doing for JCP and what will be required of at Ixion...but If we find work off 'our own backs' then as the point was made above why should they get paid...They get paid in 2 payments..iinitial job finding and a second payment depending on 'job sustainability (the bulkier part of payment)..this will continue to be the process for 4 yrs and then the payments will stop.

[Masso]

Hey,

I used to be on TWL (training west lancs) a few years ago. It was a 3 month placement where you had to turn up at 9:15am and stay till 3pm Mon-Friday. As mentioned by the previous person, this scheme was scrapped. I actually preferred it to be honest. Because you had to be there for the whole day. I applied for 20-30 jobs a day with free envelopes and stamps which I took advantage off.

 

I found friends and had a laugh from time to time. They put me on a 2 month placement at CSV which is a film a media company. I had a great time and built up some confidence. I never found a job but they paid £100 per week for 13 weeks. My point being is that on Ingeus you only receive your job seekers and nothing more.

 

MEANSTOANEND?????....

They get money for up to 4 years? I never knew that! I can’t believe I just read that! That’s so messed up that Ingeus would earn more than me for doing no work at all. My new job is 20 hours on min wage, I would be lucky to come out with £100 a week. And Ingeus would earn more than me, for me doing the work. IT’S JUST SO CRAZY!!!

 

No wonder Ingeus try and palm you off with jobs even as low as 8 hours per week. Well they did with me, and now I know why! TO GET THEIR EXTRA PENNIES FOR DOING F ALL!!!!

[sparkles2010]

I have gone back to signing on, and when i had my interview on 30/8 this work programe was mentioned to me, have they been scrapped?

 

Im in scotland and was told ingeus would be running it?

[caledfwlch]

The only pit fall that I can also see is that if you qualify for the payment of job grant and 4 weeks run on of housing benefit aqnd tax credits then do you really want to risk losing those? If you aren't bothered about losing that money then by all means declare any other reason for ending your claim and as posted before the JCP will only disclose the reason to the provider as the one you give for ending your claim.

The figure of a maximum of £14700 that the provider can claim is for the client groups that will find more barriers in the way of securing long term employment (such as those who have a disability) and the provider is only paid this sum if the remain the the long term employment for the 2 year period that they would otherwise have spent with the provider.

 

Out of interest, how do they establish whether the provider can get the bonus? Is it simply, if at the end of 24 months, you haven't returned and made a new claim/claimed for ESA and so on, they pay out?

 

I am actually surprised there isnt an option whereby if you find a job of your own bat a box is ticked, so the provider doesnt get anything, given the Gov's fascination with saving money.

 

But then, all the Provider's Contracts seem to have been written by the providers themselves, and then signed by someone at the DWP who is blind, deaf and dumb.

[flumps1976]

The providers are contracted to stay in contact with the client for the 2 year period. The longer the client remains in employment the more the provider recives in payments. When I go through and close claims for clients who ere on the work programme I have to complete a form to post to the provider to state the reason why the claim has ended and the date the claim ended.

You can chose to end the claim without giving a reason but of course you would then lose out on the job grant and housing benefit/council tax run on too.

[45002]

You need to start recording all encounters with these people.

 

This is not about paranoia this is about empowerment!

 

They now have to power to sanction you benefit on an oral direction (something they say).

 

 

 

You can not defend against this unless you record.

 

By the bullying and the fact that they are running rough shod over your rights they see you as a soft touch and it will continue.

 

That is unless you can prove exactly what they say i.e. the recording.

 

Have a look in the NHS section and aska few questions for legalities but as an aid to memory you can not be stopped.http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?256545-Audio-recording-your-consultations-with-NHS-doctors(1-Viewing)-nbsp

 

Pick your time fight back then strike with the evidence i.e recording

 

You can get Dictaphone for as little as £10.99

 

http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalogId=1500002901&langId=-1&searchTerms=DICTAPHONE

[caledfwlch]

The providers are contracted to stay in contact with the client for the 2 year period. The longer the client remains in employment the more the provider recives in payments. When I go through and close claims for clients who ere on the work programme I have to complete a form to post to the provider to state the reason why the claim has ended and the date the claim ended.

You can chose to end the claim without giving a reason but of course you would then lose out on the job grant and housing benefit/council tax run on too.

 

So basically you can tell the provider to "(edit) off" and refuse to confirm whether you are still in employment, or even lie and say you have quit to move to Spain - theres nothing they can do to you, by the sounds. Once your off the JSA books, you no longer have a contractual arrangement with the provider by the sounds.

Edited September 11, 2011 by ErikaPNP
circumvention of swear filter

[flumps1976]

caledfwlch, no you are still required to keep in contact with the providers for the duration of the 2 years from when you first attemded, however nobody can force you to answer their calls or reply to their letters can they?

[caledfwlch]

caledfwlch, no you are still required to keep in contact with the providers for the duration of the 2 years from when you first attemded, however nobody can force you to answer their calls or reply to their letters can they?

 

What "punishment" can they levy for telling the provider to (edit) off?

 

Any agreement with the Provider is surely null and void once you leave JSA. I don't recall anything I signed with Working Links suggesting I have a contractual relationship that continues after I leave.

 

These providers are so rubbish and (edit), I am determined to be the awkwardest (edit) ever with them. I have left WL's wings now, after 12 months, managed to avoid every joke of a work trial they offered

 

But I will be contacted by whomever is doing the Mandatory work programme in the next 2 or 3 months. Will make damn sure I read anything I have to sign, and take advice on whether I can refuse to sign for certain conditions I don't like, if any.

Edited September 11, 2011 by ErikaPNP
circumvention of swear filter along with potentially libelleous statement

[seen this before]

You can get Dictaphone for as little as £10.99

 

 

the dictaphone looks out of stock and has some poor reviews.

 

a dictaphone looks like it could be a worthwhile investment though stubby external microphones appear reasonable to connect too.

 

the job centre don't like people signing off after being referred to providers for other benefit,but if the provider thinks there is little chance of finding work its beginning to feel like they want rid.they have the payment so no skin off their nose.

[flumps1976]

The providers are only paid for the outcomes they produce aso will only be paid if they get you into work and they are paid more the longer you remain work during the 2 year period you are with them.

[seen this before]

i was under the impression they were paid a £400 pounds upfront.

 

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/the-work-programme.pdf

 

 

although the bulk of the fees were made when sustained employment was found around six months.

[flumps1976]

oop sorry I stand corrected I have jumped ahead a few years where the start up fee is reduced to the point it is no longer paid. The inital payment is paid to help get the ball rolling and to be used towards training programmes setting up work trial and paying the expenses.

[girvind]

My husband, a 51 year-old highly skilled cabinet-maker and joiner, has been given an interview by these idiots... as a telephone debt collector! Apparently they no longer get any money unless they place you in a job so will send you to the most ridiculous (and frankly unsavoury) jobs. Why? In the hope that you will refuse the job and therefore be 'off' JSA? Absolutely unconscionable.

[Masso]

I found myself a job after being with Ingeus for nearly 2 months. I told Ingeus that i had found a job and they questioned me about the job as though i was telling porkies! hahaha....

 

I then filled in my job centre book with :-

 

 

'Going to live with parents down south and search for jobs in Oxford'

 

I have had hundreds of phone calls from Ingeus asking what happened to my job i said i recieved. I told them i was still working! hahaha. And then they questioned what i told the job centre! but i have read that Ingeus only recieve money if you find a job, but because i wrote in my job centre book going to live with parents then Ingeus don't get anything!

 

I think i have really $%£$"$% Ingeus off and it feels really good! Plus i found the job myself so Ingeus can go $£%^ themselves! BYE BYE INGEUS!

[YorkyLad]

Hi folks,

 

I had my first appointment with Ingeus this week. It resembled more a car crash than anything constructive.

 

Immediately I was asked for sensitive personal data in an environment that was not private. "Do you have a criminal record?". I refused to give them any personal information other than what the job centre had forwarded (my name and address). My 'adviser' then told me I "was obliged by law" to give him both my telephone number and my email address. I asked him to spell it out several times that against my will he was saying he had the powers to make me surrender my personal details and he asserted himself firmly that this was the case. "Ingeus have been mandated with the authority the same as the job center. You have to give me your email address" he stated. He then threatened me with a sanction if I didnt hand over email address!! So within 10 minutes of my first appointment i'm treatened with a sanction (which would leave me the same as a lot of people have said before in this thread... homeless and destitute) for exercising my right under UK law to protect my data.

 

Satisfied that he wasn't going to acquire my email address from me he demanded my mobile phone number. Which, summarily I refused to part with too. He told me again that the law dictated that I surrender (against my will in this case) my mobile telephone number to him. I told him again of my belief that he had no authority to make such demands and I requested to see the written evidence that this private company I'd never heard of before had exemptions from all UK laws regarding personal data. I wanted to read about a law that empowered this man to have more power over me than a police officer does in the street. He was delighted at this prospect and skipped off to a cupboard.

 

"These are the documents about you having to give us information" he said nonchalantly launching the 5 sheets of paper across the desk. I could see his head sink when it became evident after a few moments that I was reading them. Not what I was expecting and he can't of read properly the 'consent to share information' and 'information disclosure' he just handed me. The information disclosure' document basicly said they abided by the data protection act and so humbly requested my data. The penultimate statement of that form states "Please be aware that not signing this form will not affect your benefits or your access to this programme". Speaks for itself... The Data Protection Act applies to them too. They do not, as my advisor stated, have any sort of exemption or powers to enable them to punish you for exercising your right to withhold from them your personal details and 'sensitive data'.

 

Then the 'consent to share information' form is a joke and I urge no one to sign it. By signing that form you allow Ingues to call your 'future employer' whenever they want to inquire about such things as "The number of hours you work", "the amount of your earnings each week", "the dates of your employment". Which is something I do not want to share with them. Luckily as they are requesting something to which they are not by law entitled to without my permission, again, the form has an advice at the end. It reads:

 

"entitlement to these benefits will not depend on whether I choose to give consent or not.

My placement on any programme with Ingeus UK Limited and 'Delivery Partners' (the ambiguously unspecified 'Delivery Partners')

I can withdraw my consent at any time by writing....."

 

I use the material he handed me as reference and I point the small matter of the law standing in the way of his attempted illegal theft of my personal data.

 

He points out that I haven't read the bit that says I must surrender my telephone number! That's on the 'Ingeus Expectations' document. He points his finger into the page and I start reading.

 

"As it is a condition of your receipt of JSA that you are available for work, you must have your mobile phone switched on and with you at all times during office hours".

 

"You see?" he inquired. Simple rebuff to such idiocy "my phone will be on.... its just that you wont be able to ring it"

 

It was then pointed out to me that 99.9% of people were happy to give that information away. He tried to force the issue again. I can quote him as saying that my actions might be judged to be sabotaging my job search and, again, this may cause my JSA to be terminated. so, in a nut shell, trying to bully me into handing over my data against my will.

 

I then told him in no uncertain terms that he was not getting my personal data off me and that we were just going around in circles. He turned to his computer and stated that the job centre would be informed of my refusal to complete the forms and surrender data. He told me to speak with the job centre about my concerns and then i was to return a week later and repeat the process (and I can assure everyone that it very much will be a case of repeating that process).

 

To conclude. It struck me very similar to a high pressure sales pitch by a lying, manipulating cheating salesman who would not take no for an answer. I feel very much that been told that Ingeus has a 'government mandate' giving this man the authority to say he is except from the law is sickening. We know why they want specifically my contact details and my personal data it is so they can ensure their own financial gain.

 

and this is the bottom line of it all for me regarding his conduct:

 

If he knew Ingeus did not have the exemptions he stated they did when he said he did then he is in breach of TWO sections of the 2006 Fraud Act

 

Fraud by false representation

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and

(b) intends, by making the representation—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A representation is false if—

(a) it is untrue or misleading, and

(b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading

 

Fraud by abuse of position

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) occupies a position in which he is expected to safeguard, or not to act

against, the financial interests of another person,

(b) dishonestly abuses that position, and

© intends, by means of the abuse of that position—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A person may be regarded as having abused his position even though his

conduct consisted of an omission rather than an act.

 

I think by anyone's standard if you threaten someone with effectively making them homeless and possibly starve unless you submit to an illegal demand is an abuse of position and there is no doubt it was a series of 'false representations'.

 

This is a company dealing with lots of vulnerable people and it makes me angry to think others who do not know their rights are are been deceived and bullied into handing over personal data that they do not have to. Fraud does not have to be just about stealing money... and the theft does not have to have taken place it is still fraud even if the [problem] fails.... therefore this is fraud!

 

Thank you for listening.... Next episode Monday! :/

Edited September 28, 2011 by YorkyLad
(problem) ?

[biggeorge]

I have some legal docs to send to Ingeus C.E.O tomorrow and if my plan works The whole Work Programme will fail

overnight, Will be costing them loads of money from all customers who sent in the refusal letters.

 

Cheeky gits sent me 2 new appointments both claiming to be my "first" appointments when that is impossible as I had my

first meeting in August, check secret video: http://theworkprogramme.me.uk

 

Watch this space for any developments.

 

P.S Anyone with problems as Yorkylad had with them demanding data you must make a complain to the ICO, more complaints

about this private company the better.

 

George

[means2anend]

Thanks guys...anyway the telephone matter is so irrelevant...what if one does not possess a mobile...sheeeeshh!!!

 

Yorkylad...great summary...shall refer to your post when my time comes...

 

BG...cant wait!!!

 

I shall put some quality time aside to thoroughly trawl your website and refer to it periodically for updates..THANKS for your time!!!

rgds

m2ae

Edited September 28, 2011 by means2anend

[caledfwlch]

I have some legal docs to send to Ingeus C.E.O tomorrow and if my plan works The whole Work Programme will fail

overnight, Will be costing them loads of money from all customers who sent in the refusal letters.

 

Cheeky gits sent me 2 new appointments both claiming to be my "first" appointments when that is impossible as I had my

first meeting in August, check secret video: http://theworkprogramme.me.uk

 

Watch this space for any developments.

 

P.S Anyone with problems as Yorkylad had with them demanding data you must make a complain to the ICO, more complaints

about this private company the better.

 

George

 

Have you researched this thoroughly? There is genuinely, absolutely no way that Jobcentre Plus can sanction the benefits of somebody for refusing to sign any paperwork with a private corporation, ie the Provider, only if you refuse to attend appointments?

[speedfreek]

This of any use to you kids

 

work programme minimum service agreements (brazenly stolen from somewhere else)

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/provider-minimum-service-delivery.pdf

 

You never know with this new gubbins as if you're lucky

 

All customers will have access to the Ascent Employability Kit and will receive a minimum of one item for example a haircut, personal hygiene kit, alarm clock, work or interview clothing

 

Please form an orderly queue!

[Nystagmite]

My adviser told me about that! The interview clothing stuff I can understand - but an alarm clock?! I mean, nearly everyone has a mobile these days, which should be enough.

[flumps1976]

It may say in their guidance about these items being available but has anyone actually been successful in obtaining any of it? We get nothing but complaints from clients at their signing as the providers can hardly bear to part with travel expenses and frequently try to refer them back to the JCP to try to access the Flexible Support Fund.