Migration to UC - help

[HP Mum]

I got a letter a few months ago saying I need to migrate to UC.  I've had an initial (self-employed) assessment - and failed miserably.   I don't know what to do now. 

They want me to apply for jobs that I don't have time to do. Am involved full-time in litigation, heading to trial (like barely sleep/ work every w/e).  I thought that would be considered exceptional/ extenuating circumstances. But no.   

Have always been self-employed and filed accounts. Just last few years income been almost non-existent - I've pretty much relied on tiny monthly wtc to survive.  But now UC don't consider me "gainfully self-employed" as I havent created enough £s.  I have no idea how I'm supposed to comply with what they expect me to do.  And I can't afford for them to stop giving me anything.   I also importantly need a benefit to be able to cope with the litigation.  I'd lose the help-with fees and pro-bono counsel if benefit removed. I have legal obligations and must work on that - or my whole case falls apart.   This situation is so stressful.  And I can't afford to lose focus.

 

 

[honeybee13]

Sadly I don't see the DWP agreeing that your litigation lets you off job-hunting. Maybe @unclebulgaria67 will have some thoughts for you.

If you have legal obligations then are you entitled to be reimbursed for your time?

HB

[unclebulgaria67]

HP Mum, the important thing you must do to retain your UC payments is to attend Job Centre appointments.  If you fail to attend and don't provide good reason* for not attending, you will get referred to a Decision Maker to consider sanctioning the personal allowance part of the benefit.

And you must show some evidence of applying for jobs, so start applying for part-time jobs. The aim is to find a job that can earn you £812 per month which is the new minimum threshold that is coming in. Once you earn at least the minimum, then the Job Centre won't be booking in regular appointments.  The £812 is purely from normal employment and would not include self-employment.

Or if you are struggling with health e.g. stress, you could see your Doctor and see if they will sign you off for a period, then report fit note on your UC claim. And then the Job Centre won't expect you to search for work for a period. But if the sick period is for 4 weeks or more, you would be referred for a work capability assessment process.

* good reasons for failure to attend would not include civil litigation unless you were actually attending Court.

[HP Mum]

Thanks

I've been self-employed all my life. And I work all the time. I don't understand how they cannot take litigation into account?  But they aren't. 

I'm doing a lawyers job - just w/o pay - and on 2 different cases, one of which as a trustee.  Its not a part-time job - it needs full-time focus.  I have an imminent deadline - disclosure of evidence for a 5 day trial.  2 hearings - in Nov and Dec.  And a witness statement to write.  The last one took me 4m to draft and write - and I've only got 1m left  All of which require immense prep. 

UC want me to sign a commitments page for 'jobs' that they gleaned I'm "capable of" during my assessment - and that I will spend 35h/w trying.  I already told the guy I work all the time and can't work any more hours.  (The otherside keep throwing different legal stuff at me that often needs urgent attention.) 

What do you mean one must earn £812/month? The uc guy told me that if I earned £500/m I'd lose the standard uc benefit - which I think is apx £345/m.

I don't understand how that works?  With wtc I just did self assessment tax returns every year which accounted for variable income and still showed I was in need of a monthly benefit.   I can't suddenly magic self-employed work.  And I can't imagine who will employ me knowing my legal distractions.   

They've already booked me in for another appt - days after my assessment.  I can't let them turn me down for UC.  So I need a plan.

[unclebulgaria67]

You can appeal the not gainfully self employed decision, by asking to book another gateway intervention appointment with a different self employment Work Coach. Point to the number of hours you spend on self employed work and previous track record of earning money from self employed work.

The £812 is new administrative earnings threshold for employed work. It is currently £617 per month, but going up to £812 very soon. This is what Government expects as minimum earnings level, if there are no health barriers to working.

However, if you are only getting single personal allowance amount which is currently £368.74, if you have about £700 employment earnings in a month you would not receive any UC payment. For every £1 you earn 55 pence is deducted from UC.

The whole purpose of migrating people from TC to UC is for Government to save money.

Use an online benefits calculator such as Entitledto or Turn2us to check what level of earnings would mean zero UC payment.

The legal issues you face have no status in regard to UC legislation regarding availability to work. So the Job Centre is not able to take into consideration. Obviously attending Court is a different matter.

[HP Mum]

"Previous track record" ?  I haven't properly earned in 5y.   Although historically I have a record.  But all those records are filed away in storage.    

I need to figure a solution immediately as I can't afford to waste time worrying.  My focus today and all next week needs to be on prepping for a legal deadline.

How does one appeal 'not gainfully self-employed'?  And how does one book another gateway intervention appt with a different work coach?   Should I book this before I agree and sign the commitments page?

Theyve scheduled another appt already for end next week.

[unclebulgaria67]

Government website on this topic

https://www.gov.uk/self-employment-and-universal-credit

Perhaps, no point appealing if your self employed earnings have been minimal for years.

You would need to prove that your self employment was gainful. Organised, developed, being done to make a profit and a way to earn a living from. Or if you have had business problems recently you have a business plan to increase earnings, so within 12 months you won't need a UC claim.

If you want a different self employment Work Coach to review your self employment in regard to whether it is gainful self employment, ask via UC journal for a new Gateway Intervention appointment with a different Work Coach as you are not happy with previous decision made.

 

[HP Mum]

I asked to appeal and have a different work coach.  They simply replied that I need to attend the next appointment or they'd sanction and stop my payment (before it's even started)

They also ask me to sign this commitment thing.  But I can't sign that. I cannot commit to what the work coach classified me as (in a 20 mins appt)

The work coach said I wasn't gainfully self-employed.  The commitments thing is to commit to being an employee -to look for an employee job.  I cant commit to being an employee and trying to get any employee job.  I can only be self-employed. That's they only way I can juggle everything I need to do.

I replied in this journal thing tonight that I already had a work commitment at the day/ time they scheduled an appt.  They haven't replied because they don't work evenings.  

This situation has arisen at a very inopportune moment. I have 3 imminent court hearings, and 2 crucial info deadlines.  This process is such a distraction.  I can't focus

 

[HP Mum]

I have no clue how to manage this process.  I mean I must - somehow - but I'm not used to having to explain how I work/ what I do to anyone (consider that a waste of time/ one should just get on and do 'it'). 

How does one navigate the 'start up' 12m period?  Where they don't bother one every week?   As busy as I have been on legal stuff - I have an idea for a new biz.  The idea grew from something I was involved in and calls I had to make (so I can prove its genuine).  I came to realise I'm capable of handling it rather than subbing out / passing on to different Co.  And it can grow.  I can't rush it: it involves other people and procedures (and cos am busy with own legals).  But it will def generate income over the next year.  And could become a huge biz (if that's what I want).

Edited November 10, 2023 by HP Mum

[unclebulgaria67]

For now you have to accept commitment, otherwise the claim will be closed, if not accepted by date in your to do list. And you need to attend the appointment booked or a Decision Maker (not Job Centre) can apply a sanction.

The journal message from Job Centre if worded as you have said, is not following correct process. The process is that for self employment gainful or non gainful decisions, claimants can appeal these first with the Job Centre, by asking to see another self employed Work Coach. Then if a different Work Coach makes the same decision, Mandatory Reconsideration can then be requested where a Decision Maker independent from the Job Centre reviews the last decision by Work Coach.

Challenge a benefit decision (mandatory reconsideration): Eligibility - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

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Challenge a benefit decision - how to ask for a mandatory reconsideration, evidence you'll need, deadlines and what happens next.

You need to cooperate with the Job Centre for now, but you can appeal decisions made and you can also make a complaint using the DWP Complaints process. Just Google DWP complaints procedure. But complaint here is the Job Centre not following process regarding allowing you to appeal decision, by booking in new self employed Work Coach appointment. And the Job Centre should never say they will sanction you, as that is a decision for Decision Makers independent of the Job Centre.

Your legal battles have nothing to do with Job Centre unless they were going to prevent you becoming homeless, as DWP has a duty under law to prevent homelessness.

 

[HP Mum]

Hmmm - I don't even want to open the can of worms about 'homelessness'.  But my legal stuff is to do with 'home'.  The 1st work coach said he didn't want to know anything about my 'home' situation - as he just had to assess if I was gainfully self-employed 

[unclebulgaria67]

Job Centre only have to take into account current risk of you becoming homeless.

[HP Mum]

1st appt was at the w/e. The 2nd appt is today - as is my deadline for accepting this commitment thing.  How can I accept this commitment when I will be lying?   I cannot commit to being an employee.   The guy read out loud some rules and regulations and asked if I understood.  I can't even remember what he said.  Other than if I didn't do as he said it would be held against me.  How can that be legal?  T&CS need to be in writing at the time.  He made a decision that I must be an employee. He is forcing me to be an employee and legally put in writing that I agree to that.  I don't agree. And I will be lying under duress if I sign a document that states I 'commit' to be an employee. 

I cannot work the way he assessed I must.  I can only be self-employed. I already have self-employed commitments to others - which will eventually provide £s.. 

I know you are trying to help uncleB. I just have insomnia with worry about this and trying to meet a legal deadline that needs too much input in too little time

[HP Mum]

UncleB - I'm already homeless.   And am fighting legal property battles regarding that - to ensure I get some £s and prevent being made B.  But I don't want to even begin to start explaining what I'm going through.  I just want to deal with it.  I've had the opportunity to stay at a friend's place but can't use that address. It's impossible to exist w/o an address.  So everything remains registered where I was not where I am.  Where I am is currently at risk too

[HP Mum]

What does one say to the job centre to make them 'take into account risk of homelessness'?  Without actually admitting one already is?

[unclebulgaria67]

You need to accept commitments or claim is closed. You can appeal the Job Centre decision as already stated.

You need to tell job centre about your current homeless status.

[HP Mum]

I've really messed up.  I was sent a letter to migrate by x date.  I wanted to check my wtc status but the system was down.  And without thinking i just decided to fill out the online migration form - early.  But I just discovered that meant my wtc account closed immediately - and they then didn't pay my Nov wtc payment this week.   I now can't log in to the wtc area on my hmrc page - because they have closed it.  This means that I will get no money at all until from October until start December -  or none ever if they don't actually accept my uc claim?

But worse, I was actually owed 4 months wtc due to a discrepancy.   There had been an issue with income and a deemed over-payment of wtc.  They had stopped payments in April but then upon complaint they restarted them less a % each month to gradually recover the over-payment over the next couple years.  I had expected the back-pay by now.    When I rang wtc in September the advisor had said due to the migration letter that I should be paid the discrepancy sum immediately upon switching over to uc.  But that hasn't happened yet.  Although perhaps it will happen the moment they accept my uc claim?  But if they don't accept my uc claim then not only will I not get monthly benefit then they will consider I still owe the earlier over-payment.  So then I will owe the govt money and actually not be in a position to earn either due to the all-hours litigation I'm involved in.   Although without a govt benefit I'm stuffed. One needs a benefit to be able to access the help-with-fees and other pro-bono legal help.

I actually got the 'commitments' thing deadline pushed by a week - on the basis that I can then (hopefully) present evidence of my self-employment at the next appointment.  I spoke to a really understanding advisor.  Although she made me realise the problems I am potentially going to encounter.  She advised one is expected to earn a certain amount being self-employed.  That if you don't then you can't be self-employed; you must get a job and be an employee.  I can't get my head round that.  I want to be self-employed. I also don't currently need to earn a lot as I have really low overheads.  Obviously I want to move beyond my current litigation cr*p and get back to being a fully productive business person earning properly.  But I can't work normally until it is all over.   I cannot imagine even being employable given my distractions.  Though I am beginning to wonder if it is simpler to just 'commit' to trying to be an employee?  To attend the centre appts every week, failing repeatedly to get a job?  And just quietly try to continue with my self-employment bits and new business plans?

I don't want to open up about the homeless bit - it will just open a can of worms that I can't cope with

Edited November 13, 2023 by HP Mum

[unclebulgaria67]

As soon as UC is claimed, a stop notice is sent to TC to close the claim.  So contact HMRC about any TC that is owed.

Your choice in regard to UC. Do you provide evidence of self-employment being able to earn you a living in the next 12 months, by providing details of your plans to develop your business ? Or do you accept having to become an employee searching/applying for enough jobs to keep the Job Centre happy ?

Ask yourself the question as to whether your health currently equips yourself in dealing with this ? If not, go to your Doctors and ask about a fit note. If you went to an interview for a job, how would you present to any employer? Stressed and not functioning?

[HP Mum]

I'm capable enough to handle this legal stuff and attend court. 

It's exhausting and overwhelming though and I can't think of anything else.

If I'm capable for this I can't imagine a doctor signing a letter to say I'm not well. It is affecting my well-being for sure. But this migration to uc is stressing me out more - because I physically and mentally am unable to take on more workload - so no I won't present well

I've also read a couple other threads here.  Can now see the flaw with uc and this min inc level. 

Naturally people may not earn much being self-employed - at first, regularly or ever. It's shocking that the Govt can impose an amount one must earn (min Inc level) via self-employment and then apply that amount to your monthly record - even if not actually earned.  Which then reduces one's benefits. This is so discouraging and depressing.

On one hand the Govt encourages British people to set up new business initiatives and yet on the other they are discouraging it. 

Meanwhile the centre I visited last week was full of people who couldn't speak English - how are they going to find work? Does the govt just pay them the full amount without questions because the foreigner can't explain themselves - to anyone?

[HaroldLloyd]

I've been in a similar situation to you before regarding DWP back in the day. They had and now seem to have a turbocharged view that your worth as a person is only determined by how much tax you pay/money you earn.

However, reading through your thread here, you are making the same mistake which I did having been self-employed in the 00's. 

You have every right to NOT have to work for an employer if you feel, which you clearly infer, that it's beneath you.

You have every right to be self-employed too!

Bottom line though is if you expect to get free money from your fellow tax-payers, some of whom get up at 4am to do jobs they hate for minimum wage 6 days a week; I wouldn't get too arrogant about saying things like "I couldn't possibly be an employee!"

Read the room!

As others have said - this cryptic freehold/leasehold, endless litigation on trust property over 10 years, sounds like either you own Hampton Court and it's being contested, or you have some obsession which would probably help you if you took your foot of this pedal and engaged with DWP who might be able to signpost you to mental health agencies who can help you recover from this issue.

 

Benefit claimants not seeking work to face mandatory work placements

WWW.BBC.CO.UK

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It is part of a plan to get people back to work, with more investment in career support also promised.

 

[HP Mum]

Thanks for your input HL.   Didn't say, would never say being an employee is 'beneath' me.  Already 'worked' from 0830-2300 w/o even going outside the door and about to work another 2h.  I physically really do not have time to look for or work another 35 hours on  top of what I already do.   But - if that is what they ask me to try to do, I will try to toe the line (because I do not want to make mistakes that jeopardise the bigger picture).   I have wobbly moments but mostly cope where others would crumble under intimidating lawyers. I do not want or need to be a burden on the nhs - unless by accident or serious illness.  I earned a fortune, employed 00s of people in the past, and certainly paid my taxes and more.  And then 'things' happened.   My property issues have been for 5y.  Somehow I will turn things around.   I'm the kind of person that makes work happen, makes jobs for others, and creates income.  My situation is nothing to do with not wanting to work.  As soon as I can draw a line under things I will be free to work at full-earning power again.  Just the otherside lawyers have deliberately been overwhelming me - and I barely have time to breathe.   

Please don't bring judgmental views or be rude to people on this site.  I understand you may have had a bad day today - but most people come on this site looking for kindness, moral support and genuine helpful advice.  Good night

Edited November 16, 2023 by HP Mum

[HP Mum]

Well. I've accepted the commitments. Hope they accept my 'claim' ?  Need to send accounts to wtc to finalise my position with them. 

I have an overpayment issue due to last tax year - but this gets passed on the uc for them to deal with over the next year+ (% £s off each month uc payment). 

Apparently the months they owe me, they will still pay me (soon) as they relate to this tax year, not the overpayment tax year.  They don't just deduct what I still owe as an overpayment - which is a relief.