Ingeus

[Chester6]

I finish early July, so I've applied for voluntary work which I hope will keep the DWP off my back....... The shop is opening this month and is literally a 4 minute walk from my house!

 

Do you know what happens next? Is it back to signing on or is there another sentence?

[LongHairedLily]

I have been told by the advisor I sign with at he Jobcentre that it's back to him for a year and signing every two weeks. I think it's a case of wait and see. Not sure is the CAP is still in force?

[Jmulv]

Ingeus at it again,

 

I had a phonecall from my advisor a month back saying he'll arrange an appt for me and send me a letter (voicemail on my phone) they did this last time so I was like ok just carried on with my day. However this time they didn't send any letter, I then get a phonecall other week advisor saying I missed my appt, he didn't mention sanction or mentioning it to Job center just kind of said seems you missed your appt i'll arrange another and send a letter. (Maybe he was aware he forget to send damned thing.)

 

I've got my JSA appt tomorrow and I'm worried I may end up sanctioned for this, anybody got any advice? I have no idea how they can just sanction people for ingeus being morons. I genuinely got no letter through the post detailing my appt date / time. As I said they sent it out last time but this time nope...

[joeski]

Well I guess they'll take it as your permission to spam your details/cv round to whoever they feel like sending it to. Additionally it is your permission to contact any future employer to check on your hours and conduct and enable them to get their precious outcome payment from the DWP.

 

well as far as i'm concerned i've withdrawn my consent at ingeus so the form at signed at the other place is worthless

[jasta11]

Lily - If it's a mandatory appointment it has to be in writing as per DWP rules..and giving you at least 2 working days notice too. I'd ask them for a written appointment or else you'll report them to the DWP for breaching the terms of their contract.

 

Jmulv - Same thing; the WP advisor is in the wrong for not issuing a written appointment. They should be hoping that you don't report them for not following procedures. It may have been a genuine oversight in this instance so if the JC don't mention it then that should be okay. Make sure you get your new appointment in writing though (and every other appointment) to cover yourself in future.

 

There's two kinds of mistakes the WP drones make; the ones from ignorance and the deliberate ones. We don't want to be caught out by either!

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[stikky62]

well as far as i'm concerned i've withdrawn my consent at ingeus so the form at signed at the other place is worthless

 

Unfortunately it's the other way round. You'll have to hit them with another withdrawal form.

 

edit: I've just hit the 12 month mark in my sentence to WP and have been told I'm getting a new advisor (#7) and going to the next stage. Can anyone tell me what fun 'n games I've got to look forward to now?

[Lorise]

Hiya Stikky62,

I have been with Ingeus almost 2years, have been with 6 advisors and i am on my 2rd/3rd next stage, i can't say your next stage will be the same as the ones i have had but for me it involved for the first one going to Ingeus in Gateshead for 18 weeks, that was just Job searching there on PCs for 16weeks then a customer service course at the same office for the last 2 weeks( was 2days a week 9 til 3, for 2 weeks). then i was sent back to Newcastle and now on this next stage i am job searching on the PCs in Newcastle...again. Hope your next stage is helpful to you.

[Jmulv]

Jmulv - Same thing; the WP advisor is in the wrong for not issuing a written appointment. They should be hoping that you don't report them for not following procedures. It may have been a genuine oversight in this instance so if the JC don't mention it then that should be okay. Make sure you get your new appointment in writing though (and every other appointment) to cover yourself in future.

 

Yeah that is the completely logical way any normal person looks at it, however I worry JSA turn around and say oh your word against theirs! and I think what the hell?....

[joeski]

Unfortunately it's the other way round. You'll have to hit them with another withdrawal form.

 

edit: I've just hit the 12 month mark in my sentence to WP and have been told I'm getting a new advisor (#7) and going to the next stage. Can anyone tell me what fun 'n games I've got to look forward to now?

 

 

oh great, i'm going to take my signed form from ingeus into this place and show them it..then i'll ask for the one i signed there to be torn up.

[Chester6]

I'm sure that if you wrote to:

Derek French/Clare Elliot

Head of Work Programmes

Department for Work and Pensions

Level 4

Steel City House

56 West Street

Sheffield

S1 2GQ

This pair would appear to be top of the food chain as far as overseeing the activities of the providers - If nothing else, they won't be happy to get letters indicating possible fraud... You never know, your provider may get a kick up the backside

 

Oh, as to where the name & address came from - It was at the top of a letter sent to seven failing primes back in November 2012 telling them to pull their socks up (copies available on request).

 

You don't believe that following the drones complain procedure would do any good? At least two advisers are complicit in being thieves

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

Yeah that is the completely logical way any normal person looks at it, however I worry JSA turn around and say oh your word against theirs! and I think what the hell?....

 

Always insist on copies of all paperwork and demand everything is put in writing - At least this way you have some form of paper trail when they screw up. It is also worth insisting on all communication to be in writing, i.e. no phone calls..

 

I was always blunt to the point of being rude when ever A4e rang me and constantly reminded them of the "by letter only" rule - If nothing else, it costs them more time and money.

 

Oh... Also found out yesterday that declining to sign any papers is not a sanctionable "offence" according to a response to a DWP FoI request.

[antone]

 

Oh... Also found out yesterday that declining to sign any papers is not a sanctionable "offence" according to a response to a DWP FoI request.

 

Correct, at least as it relates to the Work Programme and data protection. You can't be sanctioned for refusing to sign these documents and, indeed, the wording of said documents is supposed to indicate that you won't lose benefit if you don't sign.

[Chester6]

Does anyone think that the drones system for complaints work or is best to go straight over thier heads?

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[scousereject]

Hi all,

 

So this will be my 4th appointment to Ingeus, my advisor has asked me to come in to do some job searching? I told him I had access to a a) a computer and b) the internet. He then told me I had to and gave me the whole we have experienced staff here at your disposal to assist you...

 

I don't like wasting my time with things, it is a pain for me to get to Ingeus to be only asked to apply for jobs. What did you guys/girls do?

[Mr.P]

I have a simple rule: Never lodge a complaint with front-line staff, always go to the top. High level managers do not want to waste time dealing with complaints, so will pass them back down the food chain and quite likely kick butt in the process. It also alerts the upper levels to the possibility that there are problems at the bottom.

 

In the case of a provider failing to refund travel expenses, yes, go over their heads and complain direct to the head of the WP at the DWP. (I'm not paying my taxes so that he/she can sit in a comfy office doing buggerall).

[Mr.P]

I don't like wasting my time with things, it is a pain for me to get to Ingeus to be only asked to apply for jobs. What did you guys/girls do?

 

Must admit I never really had to face that - Did come close when an adviser suggested that a "supervised job search might help you to...". She never got as far as completing the sentence. If she had, I would have pointed out that the data I use for CVs and cover letters are all stored on my computer at home - A system that she has neither the authority or skills to use.

 

If you are feeling confrontational, you could suggest that the last set of DWP figures regarding their abysmal performance would indicate that the staff are neither experienced or qualified.

[Chester6]

I just used to go along for jobsearch but then I didn't realise there was so many rules to say you didn't need to go there if you could do it at home - correct?

[Bakatcha]

I just used to go along for jobsearch but then I didn't realise there was so many rules to say you didn't need to go there if you could do it at home - correct?

2 points -

1. For such an instruction to be enforceable you have to be correctly mandated. It is not enough for them to say "I'd like you to attend structured/supported jobsearch twice a week". Amongst other things it has to be in writing , only one activity per MAN and at a specific time/date. Hence for the above instruction they would need 2 correctly worded MANS per week each with a specific time/date and duration!

2. You could, and should, argue as per Mr. P's comment. i.e. this is not suitable as I can do this at home much better. From memory the excellent consent.me site has a draft letter you could use. Remember that they are supposed to be providing a service tailored to your specific needs - ask them how their demand is structured to your specific needs and then point out the deficiencies in their arguments.

[Chester6]

What about if you are mandated for a stupid course such as job seeking but no mention of how long it is?

I will argue if forced to do jobsearch there as the computers are slow, windows and useless, my e-mail never works etc

[LongHairedLily]

With regards to chasing my new advisor for written confirmation by email and phone. She FINALLY returned my email. The header States 'Appointment 17/5/13 @ 11.30'

I wrote could yopu please confirm the above appoinment I require hard copy for my records. She wrote Hi (my first name) I can confirm this appointment has been booked with her business signiture and Ingeus office details below this. Do you think this is enough proof if a doubt was ever raised. I haven't had a mandated letter in the post.

[Mr.P]

What about if you are mandated for a stupid course such as job seeking but no mention of how long it is?

 

Would argue that a mandated activity without a clearly defined start and finish date contrary to Chapter 3, paragraph 33 of the WP Provider Guidance* is unenforceable. If it mandates you to undertake an activity that can be accomplished to a higher standard at home, then demand an explanation as to how it meets the requirements of paragraph 30 of the same guidance notes. Also insist on documentary evidence on how this "activity" fits in with the "tailored and personalised support".

 

Also worth reading paragraphs 28 (display of ESF & JCP logo) and paragraph 34 - If the correct wording is not used in full, the mandation notice is unlikely to be enforceable.

 

* www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-3a-22-october-2012.pdf

[Mr.P]

Hi (my first name) I can confirm this appointment has been booked with her business signiture and Ingeus office details below this.

Do you think this is enough proof if a doubt was ever raised. I haven't had a mandated letter in the post.

 

As per posting just above, read para.34 (if you're a JSA participant) of www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-3a-22-october-2012.pdf - Without the correct wording, the email does not constitute a valid mandation in my opinion. But I would advise caution as a DWP DM may disagree and you'd then have to go through the appeal process.

 

Certainly worth admonishing the "adviser" for sloppy email etiquette and failure to follow correct procedures

 

Edit: reading through Chapter 3a again, it states that "a MAN can be as simple as a letter". No where does it state that email or telephone calls are acceptable alternatives. Maybe another reason to take a wet kipper with you on the 13th.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Mr.P

[Chester6]

Would argue that a mandated activity without a clearly defined start and finish date contrary to Chapter 3, paragraph 33 of the WP Provider Guidance* is unenforceable. If it mandates you to undertake an activity that can be accomplished to a higher standard at home, then demand an explanation as to how it meets the requirements of paragraph 30 of the same guidance notes. Also insist on documentary evidence on how this "activity" fits in with the "tailored and personalised support".

 

Also worth reading paragraphs 28 (display of ESF & JCP logo) and paragraph 34 - If the correct wording is not used in full, the mandation notice is unlikely to be enforceable.

 

* www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-3a-22-october-2012.pdf

 

Mine don't seem to return phonecalls until you phone them and then suddenly they claim they were going to phone you

The letter says the start time but no end time, last time I argued with her she got the bus routes wrong and I was surprised as Id don't recall ever mentioning about the bus stop

This activity is a punishment as far as I can tell, that's how it felt, she claimed as I missed a job she thought was suitable then I need a lecture from a guy who called me a liar by saying "I don't believe you"

[Bakatcha]

It does seem that mandatory jobsearch is used as a punishment for actual or perceived transgressions. Each of us has to make a decision as to how far we are willing to resist such measures - and indeed the whole WP. Everyone's personal circumstances will be different, notably how well we could survive a sanction and how capable we are of fighting a threatened sanction. That said there is no excuse for anyone being ignorant of the rules by which this particular game is played. As Mr. P says a good starting point would be to read the DWP Guidance Notes (linked to in his post). Also have a look at the consent.me site.

After that it's a matter of keeping one's cool - losing your temper loses you the argument. Use courses and appointments to spread the word amongst fellow victims. Ask lots of questions. Do a Subject Access Request (and inform others that they can do one too). Treat it as a game - and be better at it than they are.

[Chester6]

It's a lecture that is supposedly so important that I must be patronised into attending

If its that important them she could easily give me the highlights