Ingeus

[jasta11]

More useful would to look at the DWP guidelines as to what's "reasonable under a participant's circumstances", I'd have thought. If you've already done a job that involves sending letters and using computers, why should you need a course to teach you these skills?

 

I'd have thought that too - perfectly sensible - but there's always been a blanket approach to unemployment by the government and DWP. I've said it before and I'll say it again; we are not - and never will be - 'individuals' under this system. Even if we genuinely don't need any 'skill updating' and are 100% ready for work, we still have to endure these WP programs and activities simply because 'they' have to be seen to be doing something.

 

If I need to go on courses to 'bring my skills up to date' then by definition I'm not fit to apply for any jobs at present as I'll only be passed over for 'lack of current skills'... but I have a JSA agreement which tells me I have to apply for jobs so by definition I'm employable now and therefore don't need any 'updated' training. Talk about having your cake and eating it!

 

The waste of money and resources is criminal. If I was a private employer and one of my staff asked to go on a basic admin course (when they already had 35 years admin experience) I'd naturally refuse them, or say 'Up to you but do it in your own time at your own expense'.

 

It's all about bums on seats, figures in columns and ticks in boxes.

[Lorise]

This is of course how it should happen but doesn't most of the time, Ingeus once tried to get me into trouble for not attending an appointment (one i didnt even know i had) due to the fact they had swapped me to a new advisor and booked me an appointment via the post which i didnt get. even through i had one with my old advisor! JC were ok about it and i didnt lose my money..

 

Talking of ingeus ive been told i am now with a new advisor(this will be my 3rd one) as i am now on the next stage whats the next stage anyone know?

 

Hi i am on my 6th advisor, my first next stage i was sent to a different office (in Gateshead) for 18weeks all i did there was for the first 16 weeks job searched on PCs in their offices, the last 2weeks i did a customer service course (i already have my NVQ Level 2 in Retail/customer services) in their offices, which i was told by the ladies doing the course it could be done in one day, yet Ingeus like to spread it out over the 2 weeks. Then i was sent back to Ingeus Newcastle for the next stage which has been job searching on the PCs again.

[dyfed]

Intentionally affected stupidity will neither fool nor impress anyone. You will not get around WP requirements or avoid their ridiculous "courses" by pretending that there's no job you could possibly do because you're too thick. I do believe that WP advisers lack the training and experience they need to do their jobs but most of them are not, fundamentally, idiots.

 

More useful would to look at the DWP guidelines as to what's "reasonable under a participant's circumstances", I'd have thought. If you've already done a job that involves sending letters and using computers, why should you need a course to teach you these skills?

 

Never sent a letter to apply for a job nor have I ever done a CV. Never had to use a computer to find a job nor have I ever needed to use a computer in a job and yes many many people cant use nor will ever be able to use a computer. Its like driving, some people cant drive. It matters not how many courses or times some people will be taught to use a computer not everyone will be able to. Its that simple.

Now the question is will DWP un-fairly sanction people because they cannot learn to use or dont have the confidence to use a computer?

I am sure there are things I can do that my local JCP staff will not but I wont sanction them or condemn them for that.

 

EDIT: Just to add that I am dyslexic this is why I stated that I could never do an admin job.

Edited April 29, 2013 by dyfed
spelling

[dyfed]

Yeah. I think the purpose of that rule is obvious. Every so often, someone in one of these "hated" organisations such as banks, the DWP and yes, even WP staffers, shows up here and offers useful advice and insight.

 

So if such a person helps you, by all means praise them. And if they don't help you because they've turned up here in their own free time to offer assistance and they've received abuse in return...?

 

Of course it would be wrong to condemn anyone trying to help on this forum but posters are condemning their local JCP staff and for good reason.

The thing is this, if it is right to praise DWP staff for doing the right thing then it stands to reason that said staff should also be condemned for doing wrong. Fair is fair.

That is what my reply was saying. I wasnt condemning all DWP staff because that would be wrong. I am sure there are plenty of good staff in what ever public service job throughout Britain.

[For13]

Hi guys, just want to put a few things out there and would like to know if they're correct?

 

Basically, if you sign the consent form at the start, Ingeus get money for you if they find you a job or you give your details to them?

 

And at any time you can have your consent removed, resulting in them getting no money for you?

[biggeorge]

Yes, Sign the consent form and you are theirs.

Do not sign or give any further information and your worth £0 to them.

 

I have 4 months of my time left with them, currently on 8 week appointments only, I am worthless

to them having never signed anything just every 8 weeks they have to pay out £4 bus fares.

 

George

[joeski]

if ingeus refer you to another company for training etc do you have to get them to sign the form withdrawing your consent to? :/

[antone]

Never sent a letter to apply for a job nor have I ever done a CV. Never had to use a computer to find a job nor have I ever needed to use a computer in a job and yes many many people cant use nor will ever be able to use a computer. Its like driving, some people cant drive. It matters not how many courses or times some people will be taught to use a computer not everyone will be able to. Its that simple.

Now the question is will DWP un-fairly sanction people because they cannot learn to use or dont have the confidence to use a computer?

I am sure there are things I can do that my local JCP staff will not but I wont sanction them or condemn them for that.

 

EDIT: Just to add that I am dyslexic this is why I stated that I could never do an admin job.

 

Well, I agree that there needs to be reasonable accommodation as to what a person can do. I was responding to the idea that someone might feign stupidity in order to avoid WP or JCP requirements. Certainly, dyslexia would be a barrier to most admin jobs and it's not something that can be sorted by an Ingeus sponsored course.

[antone]

Of course it would be wrong to condemn anyone trying to help on this forum but posters are condemning their local JCP staff and for good reason.

The thing is this, if it is right to praise DWP staff for doing the right thing then it stands to reason that said staff should also be condemned for doing wrong. Fair is fair.

That is what my reply was saying. I wasnt condemning all DWP staff because that would be wrong. I am sure there are plenty of good staff in what ever public service job throughout Britain.

 

The point is that condemning and insulting JCP (or WP or whatever) staff has a different effect than praising them.

 

Look, we have rules against insulting staff (whether specifically or in general) for good reason, and I have to say that as a Site Team member I'm quite liberal about interpreting those rules. Stuff gets posted on this forum every day that, by a literal reading of the rules, would be unacceptable, and yet I let it pass. I let it pass because I know folks get frustrated, and because I know the system is confusing and indeed fundamentally incompetent. Most of the staffers who post here also understand this, and take the generalised abuse in their stride.

 

But it doesn't have much to do with what's "fair", it has to do with what's helpful to the forum. If we drive away staffers from these relevant organisations this forum will be a poorer place, because these people do offer helpful advice, in their spare time and for no financial reward. Why would they even bother if all they get is abuse?

 

So I'd ask you to consider the implications. You're under no obligation to praise staff who've helped you, but, as a condition of posting here, you're required not to contribute to driving them away.

[Mr.P]

Basically, if you sign the consent form at the start, Ingeus get money for you if they find you a job or you give your details to them?

 

And at any time you can have your consent removed, resulting in them getting no money for you?

 

Declining to sign a DPA consent form does not deprive a provider of any outcome payments. What it does is limit the freedoms to pass your personal information to any tom-dick-harry outfit they deem appropriate without your consent. For example, the WP provider has this wonderful job opportunity that they want to put you forward for. With the DPA form, they can spin your CV, making wild claims, and email it to [email protected]"][email protected] without your knowledge. Without the consent form, you get to decide who receives a copy of your CV - It has nothing to do with depriving the provider of money but everything about control of your personal data.

 

Outcome payments can be made by the DWP by way of doing "off benefit" checks, so once you sign off, payments start (subject to DWP conditions). Without the DPA consent, the provider has no rights to contact your new employer and ask inconvenient questions (assuming you were daft enough to tell them or the JCP who you were working for).

[joeski]

if ingeus refer you to another company for training etc do you have to get them to sign the form withdrawing your consent to? :/

 

bump

[Bakatcha]

if ingeus refer you to another company for training etc do you have to get them to sign the form withdrawing your consent to? :/

"THEY" don't have to acknowledge receipt of your withdrawal for it to be effective.. Giving the withdrawal of consent letter to the main drone is enough - even if they choose not to acknowledge receipt by countersigning it. The withdrawal also applies to all their sub-drone, no further letter should be necessary.

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Bakatcha]

Declining to sign a DPA consent form does not deprive a provider of any outcome payments. What it does is limit the freedoms to pass your personal information to any tom-dick-harry outfit they deem appropriate without your consent. For example, the WP provider has this wonderful job opportunity that they want to put you forward for. With the DPA form, they can spin your CV, making wild claims, and email it to [email protected] without your knowledge. Without the consent form, you get to decide who receives a copy of your CV - It has nothing to do with depriving the provider of money but everything about control of your personal data.

 

Outcome payments can be made by the DWP by way of doing "off benefit" checks, so once you sign off, payments start (subject to DWP conditions). Without the DPA consent, the provider has no rights to contact your new employer and ask inconvenient questions (assuming you were daft enough to tell them or the JCP who you were working for).

All true BUT "off benefit" does not equate to "in work".

It is very difficult for drones to get a payment if you don't sign the waiver. Because - they don't know IF you are working, they don't know where you are working, they cannot (legally) contact your employer to get confirmation of employment (necessary to claim for an outcome payment), all they know is that you are "off benefits".

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

All true BUT "off benefit" does not equate to "in work".

 

Very true. There could be one or more reasons why a claimant is "off benefits":

 

• Employed for more than sixteen hours per week.
  
• In full time education or training.
  
• Left the country (either forced removal or for other reasons)
  
• In prison.
  
• In hospital.
  
• Retired.
  
• Dead.
  
• Won a big one in the lottery.
  

Feel free to add more if you think I've missed anything.

 

Edit: Reading through www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-9.pdf, without employer details, claiming outcome payments does indeed become much more difficult. I suspect there is a process in place should a claimant refuse to disclose the information (such as faking the paperwork)...

Edited April 30, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

Yes, the mere fact they've asked you to come in to their office qualifies you for expenses - the content of the letter and what you have/have not done is totally immaterial. They get special funding for expenses as part of their contract so if they refuse to pay expenses then I would assume they're pocketing it and cheerfully report them for fraud

 

I was thinking mainly along the lines of repeated FoI requests annoying the drones; it should certainly make them watch what they do if they know they're not only going to be checked up on, but checked up on regularly. But as people have said, probably best not to abuse the privilege!

 

O.K. FoI request made regarding number of complaints received and reminders/reprimands issued with regards to refunds of travel expenses. Will see what happens if/when the DWP replies. Follow it at:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/reimbursement_of_expenses_by_wp

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Bakatcha]

Nice one Mr.P!

Let us know when you get an answer that means something.

[jasta11]

That's a very interesting site - just spent half an hour looking at some of the FOI requests. Seems the DWP have a convenient 'get out' clause if the costs of supplying the info exceed £600.

 

I'd be interested to know how many WP participants - with all providers - were sent on useless courses well below their existing skill level, purely for financial gain by the WP. Not really a viable request though as it would involve the DWP looking at people's personal qualifications to gauge if they were already qualified when sent on the course. All I'd probably get back is simply the numbers of people referred to courses but obviously that wouldn't tell us who needed the course and who didn't.

 

Would make interesting reading though, I'm sure.

[Chester6]

That's a very interesting site - just spent half an hour looking at some of the FOI requests. Seems the DWP have a convenient 'get out' clause if the costs of supplying the info exceed £600.

 

I'd be interested to know how many WP participants - with all providers - were sent on useless courses well below their existing skill level, purely for financial gain by the WP. Not really a viable request though as it would involve the DWP looking at people's personal qualifications to gauge if they were already qualified when sent on the course. All I'd probably get back is simply the numbers of people referred to courses but obviously that wouldn't tell us who needed the course and who didn't.

 

Would make interesting reading though, I'm sure.

They claim these are refresher type courses

Or at least that's what learndirect claimed after my local drone sent me there

The course was useful for a qualification that the jobcentre had hindered me getting previously due to the hours required

It was an ECDL

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

Let us know when you get an answer that means something.

 

Perusing some of the other FoI requests, I came across this recent entry https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/food_expenses_for_work_programme - Some of you folks might want to print out the reply just in case the provider demonstrates ignorance of the WP contract.

 

Although participants attending provision are entitled to a refund of the travel costs

they incur, as travel expenses are included within the funding received from DWP as part of

the overall contract package, Providers have complete discretion on how they utilise this

funding and are not required to supply meals or reimburse the costs of meals as this is not

included in the funding they receive from DWP.

In other words: Travel expenses are an entitlement to be refunded in full, meals are discretionary.

 

Will update as and when a reply has been received to my FoI request.

[Chester6]

Perusing some of the other FoI requests, I came across this recent entry https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/food_expenses_for_work_programme - Some of you folks might want to print out the reply just in case the provider demonstrates ignorance of the WP contract.

 

In other words: Travel expenses are an entitlement to be refunded in full, meals are discretionary.

 

Will update as and when a reply has been received to my FoI request.

I knew mine were thieving ****

Stealing from the unemployed - how low can you go as a charity?

[jasta11]

Ingeus had posters advertising 'free tea/coffee' but it didn't actually happen until they got a refreshment machine in...some 18 months later! (Though one advisor made me a cuppa herself when I pointed out the offending poster).

 

Yet while I was sub-contracted to Learning Links they had; biscuits (a lot of them), bowls of fresh fuit, slices of fancy cake, packets of crisps, cuppa soups, yoghurts, tea, coffee, pop, bottled water...and bowls of sweeties on the tables...AND we were given bars of chocolate. I kid you not. Plus packs of paper hankies on the tables, screen wipes and hand-cleaners. Puts Ingeus, A4e and the rest to shame.

[joeski]

"THEY" don't have to acknowledge receipt of your withdrawal for it to be effective.. Giving the withdrawal of consent letter to the main pimp is enough - even if they choose not to acknowledge receipt by countersigning it. The withdrawal also applies to all their sub-pimps, no further letter should be necessary.

 

 

thanks, so the form i signed today was useless to them as i already withdrew my consent at ingeus

[Mr.P]

joeski - If you sign any forms giving permission to pass on personal information after having already withdrawn consent, then the latest form takes precedence. Also, any additional personal information you hand over could/would be viewed as having "implied consent".

 

Best course of action is to read everything, carry a stock of preprinted DPA Consent Withdrawal forms, and when instructed to sign something, hand over one of your preprinted forms. Also see www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/115323/response/308770/attach/2/FoI%201886%2031.08.12.pdf Should ruffle a few feathers

 

Edit: Also, bear this in mind, a quote from another FoI request:

You also asked about the regulations that allow the Department to transfer personal data to

providers such as A4e. Providers are carrying out work on behalf of the Department and in

this situation the Department remains the data controller and the provider acts as the data

processor as defined by the Data Protection Act; therefore there is no breach of the principles

of the Data Protection Act as the Department remains the data controller.

In other words, as long as the DWP has your consent to store/process your personal information, the provider could possibly redistribute data under the guise of being "the data processor". So the JCP would also need to be served with one your preprinted forms.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Mr.P

[joeski]

joeski - If you sign any forms giving permission to pass on personal information after having already withdrawn consent, then the latest form takes precedence. Also, any additional personal information you hand over could/would be viewed as having "implied consent".

 

Best course of action is to read everything, carry a stock of preprinted DPA Consent Withdrawal forms, and when instructed to sign something, hand over one of your preprinted forms. Also see www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/115323/response/308770/attach/2/FoI%201886%2031.08.12.pdf Should ruffle a few feathers

 

Edit: Also, bear this in mind, a quote from another FoI request:

 

In other words, as long as the DWP has your consent to store/process your personal information, the provider could possibly redistribute data under the guise of being "the data processor". So the JCP would also need to be served with one your preprinted forms.

 

oh great so that means i have to withdraw my consent again?!

[Mr.P]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.... But don't forget, you could use the printer/photocopier at Ingeus to print the forms. If you do it on a day when you've been mandated to attend, you get to claim travel expenses back too.