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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Newly purchased car turned out to be an ex-company car.


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My daughter recently purchased a car from a large car trader in South Wales. She was told that the car had a full service history, which she later found out that there was no service history. She also later found out that the car is an ex-company car (fleet car), which she was not informed about by the car salesman.

 

She paid over the book price for the car because she was under the impression that the car had a full service history and too later find out that the car is an ex-company car she now feels conned. The car sales company are not interested.

 

Is there an obligation by the car sales garage to disclose that the previous owner was a company and that the car was a fleet vehicle?

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name and shame

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Is there an obligation by the car sales garage to disclose that the previous owner was a company and that the car was a fleet vehicle?

 

No obligation to disclose unless asked.

If asked they can’t lie but the salesman might say “I don’t know” or “I’m not sure” rather than “No”.......

 

My daughter recently purchased a car from a large car trader in South Wales. She was told that the car had a full service history, which she later found out that there was no service history. She also later found out that the car is an ex-company car (fleet car), which she was not informed about by the car salesman.

 

She paid over the book price for the car because she was under the impression that the car had a full service history and too later find out that the car is an ex-company car she now feels conned. The car sales company are not interested.

 

How recently?!

 

The trader will say that she got a car of the condition it is and the mileage it is, and that the fact it was owned by a company is irrelevant, and she got to see its condition & mileage before deciding to buy it. She’ll certainly be entitled to the difference between having a FSH and not if she can show it was advertised as having a FSH and they don’t provide one.

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You really don't give us many details.

 

What is the name of the garage?

when was the vehicle purchased?

does she have evidence that they claimed there was FSH?

Has she contacted the garage about it?

what did they say?

 

We really shouldn't have to tease these details out of people

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Most of the nearly new cars sold these days are ex fleet cars, Usually company cars that have been used just like any other privately owned cars

 

If it was an ex fleet car then it should have a full service history as servicing would have been included within the contract

 

Ex fleet cars that i have owned in the past didn't come with a stamped service book as such, But a print out of its history

 

I would contact the fleet company for a copy of it, Failing that contact the main dealer, They should have its service history on their system

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The retailer has an obligation to disclose any facts that may influence the person buying the vehicle. An evans Halshaw branch (in Wales IIRC) lost a small claims case last year due to this exact issue with the car previously being a hire car. If you look at many main agents adverts now they will say 'This vehicle may have previously been owned by a daily hire company'.

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The retailer has an obligation to disclose any facts that may influence the person buying the vehicle. An evans Halshaw branch (in Wales IIRC) lost a small claims case last year due to this exact issue with the car previously being a hire car. If you look at many main agents adverts now they will say 'This vehicle may have previously been owned by a daily hire company'.

 

There's a big difference though between having previously been a company fleet vehicle and having previously been a hire car vehicle. There's no reason a vehicle that has been used by a company car driver should be in worse condition or lower value than one of same age and mileage that was privately owned. Quite possibly the company vehicle would be in better condition because the fleet department makes sure it's regularly serviced, any issues are dealt with promptly etc.

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There's a big difference though between having previously been a company fleet vehicle and having previously been a hire car vehicle. There's no reason a vehicle that has been used by a company car driver should be in worse condition or lower value than one of same age and mileage that was privately owned. Quite possibly the company vehicle would be in better condition because the fleet department makes sure it's regularly serviced, any issues are dealt with promptly etc.

 

I guess you are not aware of the class action suit regarding Glynn Hopkin? This suit is based on company/ex-fleet vehicles being sold without this being stated to the end purchaser.

 

I agree that company cars, in theory, are ‘better’ cars sometimes due to often being run without cost constraint and new cars benefit from being run in by a variety of driving styles.

 

The customers angle is that a fleet car has had multiple drivers but is still often advertised as a ‘one owner’ vehicle.

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And no one owner car has ever had multiple drivers?

My time as a Police Officer and subsequently time working within the Motor Trade gives me certain insights into the problems that consumers may encounter.

I have no legal qualifications.

If you have found my post helpful, please enhance my reputation by clicking on the Heart. Thank you

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All of the above is irrelevant, you have to take the car on face value. The reality is that cars run by a company are a better bet than those sold subject to private use. The seller is under no obligation to disclose previous use or that the vehicle has been used for other purposes. The disclosure would only apply to cars that are subject to an insurance right off!

 

 

Used cars are used by definition and whilst caveat emptor has been watered down it doesn't escape the fact that the definition of a used car means it has been used and is therefore not new!!!

 

 

Gawd this site is so annoying with daft claims, a gun ho attitude without or little factual documentation.

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There's not much you can do about the car being ex company, but if they advertised it as having fsh and they don't have any proof of it, she can reject the car or find out the difference in price and ask for a partial refund.

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Some company cars have multiple drivers, some who are careful and some who hammer the car. Same applies with hire cars. The cars do not belong to the driver so should they be considerate about the way the car is driven?

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You really don't give us many details.

 

What is the name of the garage?

when was the vehicle purchased?

does she have evidence that they claimed there was FSH?

Has she contacted the garage about it?

what did they say?

 

We really shouldn't have to tease these details out of people

 

 

Lack of relevant information is a perpetual problem on this site which leads to much wrong speculation and false expectations!

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I am not in the motor trade but have bought, sold and especially rented a lot of cars in my time.

 

With a car I think most is down to the keeper / user and, as others have said, you get good and bad no matter what.

 

As an example when I have a project which involves a lot of miles I always rent cars for long term but still through the daily rental market and I treat them as if they were my own and can have them for the full mileage of the rental fleet - how can this be worse than a 2 private owner car with one bad driver who never leaves a town or city?

 

The proposed class action is a complete joke in my view as there is no loss to the consumer whatsoever.

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It is up to prospective purchaser to ask to see the V5 log book. If refused, just walk away.

FSH is not the B all & end all considering what a service consists of nowadays in large garages.

Low mileage is not a guarantee of good quality----who ever got my first Motability car got a low mileage, fully serviced car, which I had thrashed from new, including towing a heavy trailer.

If you are spending a lot of money on a car then get a proper mechanic to check it out first.

Buy on straight HP. Never believe a word a car salesman tells you---most of them have no product knowledge anyway.

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