Locked in car park

[My Real Name]

Unbelievable - I find it difficult to imagine how a judge could have interpreted the facts in such a way in this.

 

Annushka / Patma / Fred - I'm sorry to hear that it has turned out this way.

[My Real Name]

Perhaps this thread should have been made invisible. No doubt that after all this time it must have been found by someone reporting to them and they gleaned too much info. If you're going to conduct your appeal on CAG it's worth thinking about asking for it to be hidden.

The only way that could have been detrimental is if Fred was trying to hide anything, which I don't see as being the case.

 

Then again, I'm just speculating at this stage.

[Conniff]

But watching your every move gives them the upper hand, even jovial conversation can give out information that would not be in the best interest to publish and gives them the chance to counter something they never thought about or could have reasonably made a defence to.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Conniff

[wobbly]

how on earth did fred lose?,what planet was the judge on!

[Patma]

Hi everyone thankyou so much for all your support.It means so much after a day like this I can tell you:eek:

It's been a long day. Fred gave it everything he'd got, as did his McKenzie friend and I.

 

I wish I could go into detail about what happened, but I think you get the picture.

Thanks conniff for your wise warning too. I expect you've all noticed I haven't had much to say lately and the need to be cautious has been the reason.

 

Onwards and upwards;)

[IdaInFife]

Just when we thought there would be closure but am sure anyone reading the thread, even the guests will understand why you can only post the minimum and am sure there will be many more messages of support coming

 

Ida x

[Patma]

Just when we thought there would be closure but am sure anyone reading the thread, even the guests will understand why you can only post the minimum and am sure there will be many more messages of support coming

 

Ida x

 

Thankyou Ida. Fred and I really appreciate how understanding everyone is. I would dearly love to pour out everything, but to be honest I think the situation speaks for itself. One day I promise the full story will be told and in the meantime I'll say as much as I can.

 

Thankyou everyone, your suport and understanding is priceless. For now it will take a day or two I think to plan the next step and we need a good long sleep.

[foolishgirl]

So sorry to hear your news Patma but you all live to fight another day in the Appeal Court.

[Yorky2008]

Hi Patma.

 

Am gutted for you and Fred!

 

Roll on the appeal and hopefully a win!!!!

 

Yorky

[Patma]

Thankyou Yorky. What a long time ago it seems since this all started and you came along with help and support all the way back then.

We'll get there.

Just need a second wind and a good rest for a day or two.

[qa19]

this is a story for the papers... this thread alone is pretty amazing never mind the story lol

[Jasper1965]

So sorry to hear your news Patma but you all live to fight another day in the Appeal Court.

 

You must get the appeal heard away from your local area. I think most of us who've read the thread are capable of putting 2 and 2 together.

[Annushka]

So much heartfelt thanks to all of you. I think we are all on the same page here regarding how we feel about what happened today. The support, advice and genuine good wishes from all of you amazing caggers means the world to Fred and Patma.

I wish them all the best for the appeal and hope they manage to get some well earned rest tonight.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Patma!

 

Obviously, this has to be Appealed. I think we have all detected that a stitch up was highly likely, and our suspicions were confirmed by this.

 

OK, the Appeal is pay-back time, and this has the potential to put everything right.

 

I suspect the Appeal will be comparatively easy given the work that has already gone into the case, so far.

 

It's now time to duck under the Radar, and keep the next moves in camera.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[citizenB]

So sorry to hear this, Fred/Patma.. good luck with the appeal .

[elsinore]

Sorry to read the bad news, Fred and Patma.

 

 

It's now time to duck under the Radar, and keep the next moves in camera.

 

 

I agree

 

Els

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Patma!

 

This is just some general advice on how to handle an Appeal (taken from one of my other ramblings elsewhere on CAG), which may be of interest to both you/Fred and any other genuine Caggers that may like to know.

 

Fred has 21 days to get his Appeal in, and whilst it may seem daunting, it's not as bad as it seems, provided he gets started and works through all of the steps to get everything ready in time for the 21 day Deadline.

 

This is the bit of CPR Fred needs to start reading:

 

PART 52 - APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is the CPR Supplement that goes with the above:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

A key admin step is to get a Transcript of the Judgement going. That should not be too expensive, maybe £100-£150 approx. You will need that for the Appeal. That needs Form EX107. Here's the link:

 

EX107

 

That is just a simple Form where you state what the Claim was, and say which Transcriber you will like to use. I can recommend a very good one, but I need to advise the name via PM not in open Forum. The person is listed in the Approved List of Court Transcribers and has been very helpful now to several Caggers.

 

If Fred can afford it, I would also recommend that he has the Full Hearing Transcribed in addition to the Judgment.

 

To clarify, the Hearing is always divided into two key areas when it comes to Transcribing the Tape(s):

 

• The Main Hearing (less the Judgment).
  

 

• The Judgment.
  

There can only ever be one Judgment Transcription, because the Judge has the right to check and adjust that, before allowing it to be released. In my experience, be prepared for some changes there to soften how things were actually said in Court! But there's nothing you can do, just get a copy of the Judgment, and allow time to organise that and be prepared that the Judge will want to see it to approve it, before Fred sees it. Best therefore to crack on with that ASAP.

 

I would advise trying to get the Main Hearing as well, although that will cost a lot more, depending on the number of spoken words and the time the Hearing took. But this can prove invaluable. Fred needs this if he can afford it.

 

Transcriptions can be paid for by the Court, if Fred is on a very low income etc, but he has to pay for them first before he can re-claim the costs. It also takes a long time to get any money back from the Courts.

 

On this subject, see CPR Part 52, 5.17 and 5.18 (that's all in the 2nd link above).

 

N460

 

This is a Form the Judge has to complete if an Appeal was requested and refused on the day. In that case, the Judge is supposed to complete an N460 straight away, rather than being asked.

 

So, if needed, get the Court to chase up the Judge to complete Form N460. That Form is very simple, and just sets out the reasons for refusing the Appeal. Those reasons may also be mentioned in the Judgment as well.

 

There will be an N24 Order that will appear soon too, that's a bit like a précis of the Judgment but should not be confused with the Judgment Transcription which will be much longer than what you see on the N24 Order. Fred will also need that N24 Order for his Appeal Application. That should arrive in the next few days anyway.

 

Fred should be able to get that lot underway in maybe a day or two at most, then you can work on getting his N161 Appellant's Notice ready.

 

The N161 Appellant's Notice is just another Form, many on CAG will help you with that, so don't worry. Here's the link:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice

 

That just leaves the key issues of:

 

(1) Grounds for Appeal:

 

This is the main bit that you need to get sorted within the 21 days, and have it ready to go along with the Appeal Bundle.

 

The main initial documents, provided you get them on time, will comprise the following bits:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice (including Grounds for Appeal)

N24 Order

N460 Reasons for Appeal Refusal (if needed)

Transcript of Judgment

 

It is VIP that you get that lot in within 21 days. Otherwise you risk having to make an Appeal Out of Time, which is a PITA. Get it in on time, and you then you have a further 14 days to follow on with the full Appeal Bundle.

 

That Bundle will include a Skeleton Argument and a routine pile of bumf that relates to the Judgment being Appealed. Most of the docs Fred will have had from the first time around, so the Appeal can be considered for permission to Appeal if that is also needed (i.e. if permission was refused at the Hearing).

 

(2) Route for Appeal:

 

This is just technical and will depend on what Judge you had, and the class of the Judgment the Judge made. It is all listed in the 2nd link above, or just click here:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is Fred's chance to put right what the buggers did wrong the first time out.

 

Get this right, and the opposition will be more worried than you are right now once they know you are Appealing.

 

The most this will cost Fred right now is the Judgment Transcription. He can always back out before the 21 day deadline and just accept the original Judgment, so do keep going and use the time to decide before the 21 days are up.

 

However, don't waste any time getting going, as 21 days is not long and you cannot afford to waste any of it.

 

Once the Appeal has been lodged, then you have 14 days to get the Skeleton Argument done, which is also key, but 2 weeks is a long time.

 

After that, it could take weeks/months to get to Appeal, and in that time you and Fred may be able to find the money for a Barrister who will take it over and take the battle back to them. If you win, you will get the original Judgment overturned, and you should get back all of the Costs, both for the Appeal, and also for the original Hearing.

 

A Barrister can later tweak your Appellant's Notice and your Skeleton, so your main aim is to get them in and good enough to get permission to Appeal (assuming you need permission, if the Appeal was not refused at the Hearing, then you may not need to ask for permission to Appeal and can just go ahead and submit the Appeal)...the Barrister can make the paperwork better later if you end up being able to afford a Barrister down the line.

 

Best of luck with this.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited May 14, 2010 by banker_rhymes_with
Clarity

[OutsiderLookingIn]

Been following this with interest. I know nothing about legal stuff but am gobsmacked that Fred lost and fuming that there must be some corruption going on. Good luck with the appeal.

[60's child]

I've only just been able to check in and I have to say my flabber has never been so gasted. I wish I had the knowledge to offer constructive advice, I can only offer my best wishes for the forthcoming appeal.

[ScarletPimpernel]

It is difficult to understand how the judge could possibly reach such a decision.

 

Was it before the same judge as before?

[JonCris]

Hello Patma!

 

Obviously, this has to be Appealed. I think we have all detected that a stitch up was highly likely, and our suspicions were confirmed by this.

 

OK, the Appeal is pay-back time, and this has the potential to put everything right.

 

I suspect the Appeal will be comparatively easy given the work that has already gone into the case, so far.

 

It's now time to duck under the Radar, and keep the next moves in camera.

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Quite & perhaps as they live very near to you if you could find the time to explain, off thread, how you have gone about it will no doubt be an added comfort to them

[Patma]

Hello Patma!

 

 

OK, the Appeal is pay-back time, and this has the potential to put everything right.

 

I suspect the Appeal will be comparatively easy given the work that has already gone into the case, so far.

 

It's now time to duck under the Radar, and keep the next moves in camera.

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Thanks for the wise advice BRW and for all the info about appeals. We will be on the case rest assured.

I hope everyone will understand if I can't give too much info for now, but will as soon as it's safe to do so.

[Patma]

It is difficult to understand how the judge could possibly reach such a decision.

 

Was it before the same judge as before?

 

I agree and no it was one we hadn't seen before.

[car nut]

gutted i dont understand how you could have lost

[BSC]

Logged on for the first time in a few weeks and I'm gobsmacked. There is plenty I want to say but now is not the time.

 

Glad to hear there will be an appeal. Best wishes Patma to you and Fred.

 

BSC