Article 50 Discussion

[citizenB]

I think this is probably the right place - I have been looking information regarding EU citizens in the UK and vice versa.. It seems very unbalanced to me.

 

The UK is just one very small country - the rest of Europe is 27 other countries..

 

 

Summary

 

1. There are around 1.2 million British born people living in another EU country, according to figures provided by the UN. Around 800,000 will be workers and their dependants.

 

This is much less than the estimated 3.3 million people born in another EU country who now live in the UK, of which 2.1 million are working.

 

 

The figures above from 2016....

 

5. EU partners charge the NHS for the costs of treating British pensioners. In 2013/14 the UK paid £580 million to other EEA countries for the treatment of British pensioners resident in the EEA while it received just £12 million from other EEA countries in the same year for the treatment of EEA pensioners in the UK[4].

 

 

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

[unclebulgaria67]

I think this is probably the right place - I have been looking information regarding EU citizens in the UK and vice versa.. It seems very unbalanced to me.

 

The UK is just one very small country - the rest of Europe is 27 other countries..

 

 

 

The figures above from 2016....

 

 

 

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

 

If you think about it.

 

UK benefits most because EU mainland countries are supplying 2,100,000 taxpayers to the UK and these are of working age. When they retire, many of them may go back to their countries of origin and will be using their home countries health services. As you get older, then you need more expensive healthcare. The UK will not pay for the healthcare of these former foreign temporary taxpayers in the UK, as they are not UK citizens. The UK only provides healthcare in the UK for these people.

 

EU countries like Spain love having pensioners living there in the sun from the UK and other countries. There are lots of people from Germany and Scandinavian countries as well. Most of these people did not pay Spanish taxes, when they were of working age. It is therefore correct that the UK and other countries pay a contribution towards the healthcare of their pensioners living elsewhere. Spain will benefit from these foreign pensioners spending money in their economy and paying any taxes they legally have to. Many pensioners healthcare will cost the Spanish much more the money they receive from the UK etc. But the benefit of having these pensionsrs living in Spain, outstrips the cost of healthcare that the Spanish might have to pay. If the UK stopped paying Spain, then i expect Spain will ask these pensioners to pay more Spanish taxes or take our private healthcare insurance.

[tobyjugg2]

I think this is probably the right place - I have been looking information regarding EU citizens in the UK and vice versa.. It seems very unbalanced to me.

 

The UK is just one very small country

Some might argue its 4, but still pretty small compared to the EU

 

EU citizens only get that one, small, over-priced, and seemingly growing more and more unwelcoming little place to add to their choices in exchange for access to ALL of the EU.

No wonder so many are apparently already reviewing their choices.

 

 

 

the rest of Europe is 27 other countries..

Yes it is.

 

So, in exchange for access to one small, increasingly unfriendly place (in parts),

... UK citizens get a choice of 27 countries, with many, many different climates and lifestyles spread over an enormous area ..

What a cracking deal SOME want us to throw away.

 

I cant imagine why anyone in their right mind would give that up.

 

 

This is interesting

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/number-britons-living-abroad-soars-3860424

[citizenB]

TJ, what I am trying to understand is.... why does everyone want to come to the UK.. and no one wants to go to these other countries within the EU ? This includes UK & EU citizens wanting to stay in the Uk.. (whether it be one or four countries) !

[unclebulgaria67]

TJ, what I am trying to understand is.... why does everyone want to come to the UK.. and no one wants to go to these other countries within the EU ? This includes UK & EU citizens wanting to stay in the Uk.. (whether it be one or four countries) !

 

Jobs and English language being spoken by more people In my local town i have a Spanish Pharmacist, a Spanish lorry driver, Hungarian chef, Polish builder etc etc. I regularly hear European languages being talked, but they also speak excellent English. There are plenty of people from outside of the EU as well.

 

Sure you will find this all over the UK. I am convinced there are more EU mainland citizens in the UK than official stats show.

 

Migration is very positive for the UK, but some people don't want to hear this.

[tobyjugg2]

TJ, what I am trying to understand is.... why does everyone want to come to the UK.. and no one wants to go to these other countries within the EU ? This includes UK & EU citizens wanting to stay in the Uk.. (whether it be one or four countries) !

 

Most want to go to the Nordic countries or Germany if you look CB.

 

I'm not going to link them all cB, but that mistaken belief aside, the figures actually show that the 'immigrants' pay more into the UK society than they take out, and the vast majority AREN'T here just to claim benefits and get priority access to housing.

Aside from the simple fact that all of which issues if they were real issues could be addressed with a few straight forward changes by our government if necessary within the EU.

 

Take the migrant labour force where the Brexit voting farmers are now whinging that they cant get enough of them ...

They are migrant LABOUR - they come and go with the seasonal WORK.

 

Yes there are some who come for the benefits, just as there are far too many people born in the UK who think the benefits systems are a way of life, just as there are refugees from outside the EU who come to the EU and here.

 

My daughter made a telling comment.

She works, has a son and a house and a reasonably good job. She has one child.

She says that many of her ex school friends who dont work have multiple children.

Almost all who work have one at most. Not all - but by far the greatest number.

Her opinion is that only the very rich, or those on benefits can afford large families, or even more than one child.

I see that as perhaps THE big failing in our system. It does need changing in my opinion,

just in a better way than the Torys want.

 

 

As should be clear, I may consider myself a liberal person, and a strong believer in a number of social practices, but no one who knows me would EVER call me left wing, in fact a number of my left leaning friends say I'm more a liberal Right, rather than Liberal middle (with some slightly left and some slightly right beliefs) that I believe myself to be.

 

 

 

What is your REAL issue cB

As while even the Tory government says the immigrants are a plus to the UK economy.

... as their own Tory right wing (and parts of the labour party) are rabble rousing with bigoted rhetoric about immigrants claiming benefits and stealing all the houses (what houses? the Torys dont build social housing).

 

 

I didn't state that opinion in my prior post just to challenge your position, although it was of course crafted to hopefully make you and other people think,

I really do believe that is the correct way to look at it.

 

 

So, what is your REAL issue cB

Put it in clear words.

You may find you dont have those clear words, and if so, you can perhaps question whether you have fallen into the trap of that hate rhetoric and the distorted world view it promotes

 

If you do have the words to describe your real issues, perhaps we can test their validity and see if I need to add those to my weights and measures.

[unclebulgaria67]

This article sums up Brexit at the moment.

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/brexit-cake-is-now-more-humble-pie-for-britain-1.3150708

[tobyjugg2]

This article sums up Brexit at the moment.

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/brexit-cake-is-now-more-humble-pie-for-britain-1.3150708

 

Good summary there unc,

and given that May is now supposedly looking at other parties to bolster her 'Great Repeal'

...NOW lets take a closer look at that

 

What is the Great Repeal - actually, not the detail

 

 

"the government is on the point of publishing its repeal bill, which will reverse the 1972 European Communities Act, transfer EU statutes wholesale into British law, adopt EU standards

– and leave ministers with powers to amend it all later without parliamentary scrutiny."

 

 

This is the bit I refereed to in these threads some time ago, where the Tories were asking their mates 'what bits do you want dropping, like Workers rights, citizens rights, environmental safegards, etc

 

This must be opposed tooth and nail

ALL changes to the existing laws MUST be debated in Parliament, NOT simply whitewashed in at May, Gove, Johnson and Rudds whims.

 

Heres Corbyns test which I expect him to at best avoid, and at worst wave through as he wants to do the same.

(Issue edicts and change laws like an Emperor without pesky parliamentary or public scrutiny).

[unclebulgaria67]

I find this worrying

 

Foreign predators snare £121bn of British giants since Brexit vote

 

http://dailym.ai/2v4Qq2E

 

It is quite possible as Brexit gets closer that Pounds Sterling will reduce in value and more UK companies will be bought. Those who voted for Brexit to gain independence might find themselves working for foreign companies who look to maximise profits for foreign shareholders. After Brexit, workers in these companies might face having fewer rights, worse pensions etc.

 

The level of debate in the country about what free trade entails after Brexit is concerning. Foreign Governments looking for trade deals, will want changes that many will be unhappy with. If a trade deal with the US includes importing cheap meat products which includes animals given steriods etc, then UK farmers and consumers won't be happy. These trade deals often come with terms that many people will find very unattractive and possibly worse than EU membership terms.

[tobyjugg2]

I find this worrying

 

Foreign predators snare £121bn of British giants since Brexit vote

 

http://dailym.ai/2v4Qq2E

 

It is quite possible as Brexit gets closer that Pounds Sterling will reduce in value and more UK companies will be bought. Those who voted for Brexit to gain independence might find themselves working for foreign companies who look to maximise profits for foreign shareholders. After Brexit, workers in these companies might face having fewer rights, worse pensions etc.

 

The level of debate in the country about what free trade entails after Brexit is concerning. Foreign Governments looking for trade deals, will want changes that many will be unhappy with. If a trade deal with the US includes importing cheap meat products which includes animals given steriods etc, then UK farmers and consumers won't be happy. These trade deals often come with terms that many people will find very unattractive and possibly worse than EU membership terms.

 

Yes

and of course these buyers will be lobbying their pals in Government to ensure the 'Great Repeal' gets rid of those troublesome and profit sapping workers rights

[tobyjugg2]

One year on, and Theresa May has betrayed almost everyone she vowed to help

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/10/one-year-on-and-theresa-may-has-betrayed-almost-everyone-she-vowed-to-help

[tobyjugg2]

The following, whatever it superficially looks like, is well worth a careful read.

 

http://www.flassbeck-economics.com/jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-henry-viii-and-britains-future-part-2-may-the-power-grab-the-right-wing-agenda-and-the-brexit-negotiations/

[tobyjugg2]

and here it is

 

Before anything at all is negotiated, before anything whatsoever is agreed,

The Torys cant even wait to see if they can use the 'Henry VIII Royal Prerogative' they seek in order to undo basic Human Rights

 

Government says it will not bring charter of fundamental rights into UK law

 

"The ECHR is an instrument of the Council of Europe, which has 47 member states, including the UK and Russia. The ECHR is enforced by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, and is completely separate to the EU"

 

 

'The charter of fundamental rights is a cornerstone of what makes Britain what we are.

I cannot understand what issue the government have with it. Is it :

 

the right to life?

the ban on torture?

protection against slavery?

the right to a fair trial?

respect for privacy?

freedom of thought, religion, free speech and peaceful protest?

 

These are not frustrations, these are integral to what it is to be British.”

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/13/great-repeal-bill-human-rights-clause-sets-up-brexit-clash-with-labour

 

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/ein-gwaith-hawliau-dynol/what-does-brexit-mean-equality-and-human-rights-uk

[honeybee13]

The Repeal Bill hasn't gone down well in a lot of quarters, has it? The Henry VIII powers are particularly worrying.

[tobyjugg2]

The Repeal Bill hasn't gone down well in a lot of quarters, has it? The Henry VIII powers are particularly worrying.

 

Yes.

I thinks its a damning indication of a government that wants to use powers that were entirely intended for use by an absolute monarch to bypass parliament (or anyone).

(add that she wanted it done in secret until too late for anyone to do anything about it)

 

If they are going to be used, its waaaay past time Liz used them to sack the whole westminster MP rabble and prosecute them for abuse of position - and hang the ringleaders.

 

First to the post - May as a commoner attempting to abuse Royal privilege

Second - Johnson - as The court Fool who simply isnt funny anymore and was never wise

Third, Baldrick err Corbyn,

 

Lightly presented, but whole heartedly meant.

[tobyjugg2]

and here it is

 

Before anything at all is negotiated, before anything whatsoever is agreed,

The Torys cant even wait to see if they can use the 'Henry VIII Royal Prerogative' they seek in order to undo basic Human Rights

 

Government says it will not bring charter of fundamental rights into UK law

 

"The ECHR is an instrument of the Council of Europe, which has 47 member states, including the UK and Russia. The ECHR is enforced by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, and is completely separate to the EU"

 

 

'The charter of fundamental rights is a cornerstone of what makes Britain what we are.

I cannot understand what issue the government have with it. Is it :

 

the right to life?

the ban on torture?

protection against slavery?

the right to a fair trial?

respect for privacy?

freedom of thought, religion, free speech and peaceful protest?

 

These are not frustrations, these are integral to what it is to be British.”

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/13/great-repeal-bill-human-rights-clause-sets-up-brexit-clash-with-labour

 

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/ein-gwaith-hawliau-dynol/what-does-brexit-mean-equality-and-human-rights-uk

 

lets expand those a little, including the potential issues

 

the right to life?

- I have nothing I want to add here at the moment

 

the ban on torture?

- Waterboarding for example

 

protection against slavery?

- Zero hours contracts which do not allow other work, have punitive penalties for being ill and require all costs to be carried by the indentured slave.

 

the right to a fair trial?

- Hold people without trial or legal representation aka the expanded 'terrorism' laws.

- Dont forget they will apply to anyone 'suspected' (and of course the government doesn't detail the justification for the 'suspicion' under 'national security').

respect for privacy?

- Snoopers charter, being 'suspected' of terrorism just because you want your personal conversations to be personal and private conversations.

freedom of thought, religion, free speech and peaceful protest?

- Throw Tawny in jail without representation or limit for protesting the fracking that local people AND councils dont want.

- Add a 'suspected of terrorist connections' charge too. Everyone knows they are all left wing activists,

- and they've clearly infiltrated the councils, so it must be a network of terror - secretly arrest them all.

 

Of course, our government would never abuse powers this way

Now would they ...

Henry May the 8th

[snowdragon]

Tony Bliar now says Brexit should not happen!

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/tony-blair-absolutely-necessary-brexit-does-not-happen-073500111.html

[unclebulgaria67]

Brexit is very unlikely, unless Theresa May agrees to go for a soft Brexit ending up with a similar position to Norway. Prior to the referendum many on the leave side accepted a Norway type solution, but since May started to talk hard, the discussion has gone towards total independence, cutting the UK off from Europe.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/886199323863789570/video/1

[tobyjugg2]

The EU's team is apparently half the size of our team,

... and seemingly 100 times more prepared.

[honeybee13]

Embarrassing, isn't it?

[unclebulgaria67]

The Tories are totally split about what Brexit they want. Given the national debt and economy slowing they can't allow a bad Brexit to damage the economy for years.

[tobyjugg2]

The Tories are totally split about what Brexit they want. Given the national debt and economy slowing they can't allow a bad Brexit to damage the economy for years.

 

Bad Brexit MAY be the worst damage to our economy, but not the only damage occurring:

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/07/17/brexit-s-toll-on-foreign-policy-losing-our-reputation-day-af

 

"Whether through arrogance or incompetence, our government is trashing Britain's reputation by the day. That's not good for business - and it's certainly not good for influence."

[honeybee13]

Interesting but depressing article, TJ. I didn't know about those institutions, but I can see the point about our waning influence. Europe doesn't care that we've done this to ourselves, they're just letting us get on with it.

 

Several political commentators have said that Britain has made itself a laughing stock and I'm starting to believe them.

 

Cameron calls a referendum that he clearly thought would go the other way, so he ran a rubbish campaign and didn't have a plan when a majority voted leave. Having said he would stay on afterwards, he disappeared overnight.

 

Then May calls an election she said she wouldn't call and manages to lose a 20-point lead in a few weeks by running about the worst campaign in history.

 

And we still don't seem to have a plan for Brexit.

[tobyjugg2]

I wonder how widespread these realisations are becoming in the UK?

 

The promoted rhetoric seems to all be 'The remoaners have accepted we are leaving'.

I believe that is a lie promoted by the establishment, including Corbyn, based on the old adage that people who think they are in a minority will stay quiet.

You see so little of the actual realities in the press, yet even with the small amount being reported, its looking worse and worse and worse - despite not even approaching the realities.

 

Why they want Brexit is utterly beyond me, other than that they would rather be a relatively bigger fish even if its in a far smaller pool.

There really cant be that many British people assured of greater riches in a post Brexit Britain, or anything other than a poorer life.

 

Perhaps the politicians are waiting for a real outcry to give them a 'reason and justification' to call another referendum, but as it stands with the realities all masked and denied, how could that be? and who knows what the outcome could be?

 

Where O where is the leader we need who will present the realities in clear terms?

Nowhere in sight at the moment. Just the usual opportunists.

[tobyjugg2]

I can only think of one set of people who would really benefit from the UK becoming a tax haven outside of the EU's banking regs (well apart from those they pay), and who wouldn't give a damn about the consequences to the nation as a whole:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/20/british-banks-handled-vast-sums-of-laundered-russian-money

 

https://ethicalboardroom.com/the-global-laundromat-and-british-banks/

 

https://internationalbanker.com/banking/laundromat-exposing-money-laundering-failures-global-banking/

 

 

The banks themselves would of course have separate 'arms' in the UK and EU (as well as elsewhere).

 

Now on a national GDP level, the money involved is quite trivial.

But destroying a nation for a few hundred million each is nothing to them or the patsy's they buy for far far less.

... and of course most of those involved would not be tied to the UK unlike the rest of us, even if some are nominally UK citizens.