Refused to provide security cctv footage

[gpmsc]

I requested the security cctv footage on a friend and myself from a major supermarket under the freedom of information act (he had started to go into a diabetic coma and they claimed he was drunk) and they have refused to furnish it. I am aware at one time there was a maximum fee of £10 and it could take up to 40 days. Is there anything I can do?

[silverfox1961]

The Freedom of Information Act does not apply to supermarkets. (as well as many others)

 

Your only recourse is a SAR which does cost £10 and yes, they have 40 days to comply.

 

I can't see how CCTV can tell the difference between drunk or diabetic coma or is it that you want to see the actions of the staff.

 

If you feel that the staff have acted wrongly, a complaint would be in order.

[gpmsc]

The Freedom of Information Act does not apply to supermarkets. (as well as many others)

 

Your only recourse is a SAR which does cost £10 and yes, they have 40 days to comply.

 

I can't see how CCTV can tell the difference between drunk or diabetic coma or is it that you want to see the actions of the staff.

 

If you feel that the staff have acted wrongly, a complaint would be in order.

 

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I felt we were treated with contempt and a complaint to the manager resulted in a ban form the store where we had shopped for over 10 years on the grounds of the cctv footage

Edited October 1, 2013 by gpmsc
correction

[Bambert]

There would be a claim here under the Equality Act 2010 for disability discrimination. Can you post further details about the event and I can give fuller advice. In particular can you cover the following:

 

Diabetes - what type? when diagnosed? what treatment is taken? how often do these coma events tend to take place

 

Circumstances - when did the event take place (how long ago, what time of day)? Had you or your friend been drinking? Was an ambulance sumonsed? Were the police? What medical treatment was required? Who witnessed the event other than you? Has the ban been notified in writing? If so, can you provide the wording?

[gpmsc]

Bambert

Please forgive my tardiness I have managed to obtain the information you have asked for but I have been unable to access this site for several days. Neither of us had consumed alcohol the previous day or the day in question. (I have known him for 15 years and never seen him drink alcohol, it has been a diet Coke or when we dine a wine glass with a small splash of blackcurrant cordial topped up with water to give the appearance of red wine in order to toast). The incident happened in the LN 11 postal area early August 2013 at lunch time (around noon), he has type 2 diabetes and is on oral medication - 2 different tablets twice daily. He explained he has had type 2 for over 15 years, it was diagnosed when he visited his GP after losing the feeling in his feet and legs and feared he had had a stroke.

It was my interpretation of a coma as I am aware if your glucose level is too low this happens, but I am not sure what happens if it goes too high apart from the odour given off on the breath but I believe this can be just as serious

He told me that this is the second or third episode, this includes prior to being diagnosed as diabetic, and only occurs if he goes a long time without food or medication. He was driven from London on the Sunday, Monday he had a light breakfast at ours with medication. It was not our intention to be out long so he did not bring any medication with him expecting to be back home mid afternoon, but things did not go as expected and we were delayed overnight, so he had no medication and the only food available was in a vending machine which did not work. We were in the middle of nowhere and forced to sleep in the car. He said he felt fine but tired the next morning so on our way back to mine he suggested we got some shopping in and asked if we could at least have a bite to eat if they had an in store café and he felt he could wait until we got back to mine to take his medication.

No ambulance was called, the police were allegedly called but we were seen off the premises and are not aware if they attended or not although we waited for a while in the car park while he had some food and a soft drink and there was no sign of the police. When we arrived home he took his medication and by this time the odour had started to subside.

There were people who witnessed the event but it did not occur to me at the time to get names and addresses but I did video most of it on my phone. The ban was on a typed A5 piece of paper stating he was not permitted to enter that store or others in the group and he signed the bottom, but it was not signed by a store representative although there was a space for the signature. It was only when I read it at a later date I noticed in small print it stated the store was a member of shopwatch which prevented him from entering any shop in the shopwatch organisation but made no mention of any shop in the group or their locations. I met him Friday evening and he said he had seen his GP on the Wednesday and there were no underlying health issues and he is back into his normal routine and feels fine.

The reason I want a copy of the cctv recording from the store is to compare it with my recording.

Gerry

[ericsbrother]

Your friend need to fire off a letter of complaint of discrimination to the store's head office and ask them for a copy of their disabilities policy to boot. If you dont get very far then you will need to send a "statutory request" which is basically a series of questions about your friends situation and their policyes and actions such as "if a person going into a diabetic coma and you are given that information is it policy that staff treat the person as being intoxicated? What training are the staff given to assess the differences and make a diagnosis on the spot and how are they qualified to determine that a diabetic is not actually going into a coma but drunk instead?"

Put in some more general questions regarding first aid, training for what to do when helping a diabetic etc. They have a certain time to respond and non-response can count against them should your friend sue them for disability discrimination. There is a specific wording you need for the top of the statutory questionnaire and you have to notify the Disabilities Commissioner's office that you are doing this (they like to count things rather than act upon complaints) and I can dig out the wording and post it up if you need it.

[gpmsc]

ericsbrother

 

Thanks for the advice. After the first boil your head letter he got back from the head office. I have showed the footage of my video to a barrister I have dealings with and explained the situation to him, he drafted a letter with many of the points you have raised along with a SAR request and asked them to explain their their procedures and requested a reply in 14 days. I spoke to james today who issued the cheque the 14 days has elapsed and he has had no reply. telephone call and checking with his bank the cheque has not been presented. However the store still has 26 days to comply with the SAR request. I would be grateful if you could post the wording.

 

On the bright side barristers do not come cheap my Saturday has been taken up in an oil & filter change plus brake pad change on his wife's Merc (just glad he is supplying the parts)

 

Gerry

[ericsbrother]

OK, headed "STATUTORY QUESTIONNAIRE"

and then as follows: I write in accordance with CPR practice direction proceedings under enactment relating to the Equality Act, para 2. Please take note that a statutory questionnaire has been sent to xxxx on the yyy of october

etc

[ericsbrother]

They will probably muck you about regarding the SAR by asking for proof of identity and anything else they can to avoid actually getting the tape out of the machine. They may well "accidentally" delete it after a fixed period but this should be dealt with by means of a further complaint about their failure to protect your personal data and warn that the ICO will be informed of this breach.

[gpmsc]

They will probably muck you about regarding the SAR by asking for proof of identity and anything else they can to avoid actually getting the tape out of the machine. They may well "accidentally" delete it after a fixed period but this should be dealt with by means of a further complaint about their failure to protect your personal data and warn that the ICO will be informed of this breach.

 

The store has had its 14 days in which to reply as the letter was served by hand. Do I send the letter off now or wait until the end of the 40 days, since it was only a few days after the store manager replied to head office and james got a letter from Head office stating the manager had viewed the footage it would look very suspicious if it was lost or erased especially when he knew a request had been put in to obtain a copy.

 

Gerry

[stu007]

Hi this may be useful to you its the ICO Guide to CCTV:

[Bambert]

Sorry for my delay in replying.

 

In my view going down the route of a subject access request is a red herring - it's over-complication for the matter which you simply don't need at this stage. The footage will be disclosable following your letter of claim for discrimination. If the footage goes missing, adverse inferences can be drawn from that against the company under the discrimination legislation.

 

From the description of disability - and bearing in mind that I am working from limited information - it is very much possible that your friend has the protected characteristic of disability on account of his diabetes.

 

The test he needs to meet is to show that he has

 

• a physical or mental condition - diabetes
  
• which has a substantial - more than a minor or trivial
  
• and long term - has lasted longer than 12 months/will last longer than 12 months/will last the rest of the person's life
  
• adverse effect
  
• on the ability to do normal day to day activities
  

 

The test is to be carried out on the basis that all non-permanent medical treatment has been withdrawn. This means the assessment is made in this case on the basis of how your friend would be if they were not taking their medication.

 

e.g. Person X has fibromyalgia. He has suffered for two years and is likely to do so the rest of his life. Without medication, he suffers extreme fatigue such that he cannot safely drive a car, cook a meal or supervise his young children. He usually takes medication to correct this. He is likely disabled under the Act.

 

Based on this test, do you think your friend is likely to meet the definition of disability?

 

I would suggest as a next step serving a discrimination questionnaire. There is a template form, and guidance for completing the document, at: gov. uk / equality-act-2010-guidance

 

I would consider asking questions along the lines of the following:

 

• Was the incident recorded on CCVT?
  
• If yes, please provide a copy of the CCTV or an explanation of why you cannot provide a copy
  
• What training have the relevant staff members had in disability awareness and/or first aid?
  

 

I would suggest completing the form, posting a copy here and then I can look at the document with you and propose amendments where necessary.

[gpmsc]

Stu 007

 

Thanks for the files I have not had time to digest them fully as yet but will.

 

Bambert

 

I have known one time his sugars have gone over 30 I think it is mol or similar, and have smelt this sweet smell on his breath, and in the store was the second time. Although he was disorientated he was not abusive more in a state of shock, unstable on his feet but fully compos mentis.

 

He does not have a mental condition although he has been prone to recurring bouts of labyrinthitis and once on the floor has difficulty to get up. He has told me even on his hands and knees he seems to want to roll over onto his back, the only medication prescribed was sea sickness pills but as he sails these seem of no benefit. He lives a normal life and is a well respected family man, and it is very rare he misses his medication to keep his sugars in check but there is the odd unexpected occasion it happens. He notified the DVLA and his insurers who have not imposed any special terms and conditions. As with the labyrinthitis this is prone to happen at any time. This affects nothing else apart from he has a tendency to stagger to the right and if he falls has great difficulty in getting up, plus diabetic neuropathy in his feet and legs do not help the situation. I know he is very self conscious about this, which I feel exacerbates the situation especially when under stress or being humiliated. He has had diabetes for over 15 years and it is progressively getting to the point where oral medication will not suffice but the bouts of labyrinthitis have only come on over the last 5 years after he had an unexplained haematuria episode and he has had several more since over the years. Even if he loses weight and the diabetes abates he was told the nerve damage was unlikely to rectify itself and it was an issue he would have to live with, but there are other complications caused by the nerve damage.

 

Yes it was caught not only on cctv but also on my phone video recorder. A request and the fee was sent but the store, as explained in another post, they will and have made it difficult to obtain a copy although the request was shortly after the event occurred. The staff appear to have little or no first aid training, they only know how to eject a person off of the premises, as although it was said that the police were called which he agreed to they saw him off the premises prior to their arrival and no ambulance was called.

We sat near the main entrance for over half an hour while he had some food and a drink and there was no police presence.

 

Gerry

Edited October 19, 2013 by gpmsc
ommission

[edjama]

HI Gerry,

I dont wish to sound rude, but, a few discrepencies in your story need to be cleared up. No doubt you would be asked at some point if you are taking this matter further so please don't take this wrong, I am just bringing them to your attention.

 

Firstly you state your friend "smells" like he has been drinking if his blood sugar is high.

high blood sugar is not associated with coma's, the danger is a stroke. If your friend was later given a clean bill of health then this wasn't the case.

I don't know if you get the same symptoms with low blood sugar but given the time of non eating, this could be possible, especially as he recovered after eating something.

Of more concern is that no ambulance was called, and at some pooint you will be asked why, given your friend was in this state and you knew he had medical problems, you chose to film the events on your mobile, rather than call an ambulance yourself?

[BazzaS]

HI Gerry,

I dont wish to sound rude, but, a few discrepencies in your story need to be cleared up. No doubt you would be asked at some point if you are taking this matter further so please don't take this wrong, I am just bringing them to your attention.

 

Firstly you state your friend "smells" like he has been drinking if his blood sugar is high.

high blood sugar is not associated with coma's, the danger is a stroke. If your friend was later given a clean bill of health then this wasn't the case.

I don't know if you get the same symptoms with low blood sugar but given the time of non eating, this could be possible, especially as he recovered after eating something.

Of more concern is that no ambulance was called, and at some pooint you will be asked why, given your friend was in this state and you knew he had medical problems, you chose to film the events on your mobile, rather than call an ambulance yourself?

 

I disagree that high blood sugar can't cause coma, as it can by diabetic keto-acidosis (DKA), but DKA coma tends to be insidious over a period of hours (rather than the sudden coma of hypoglycaemia)

 

If his breath smelt sweet then this suggests the ketosis component of DKA.

 

I agree that it sounds odd that he recovered with food : one wouldn't expect this of DKA, but rather of hypoglycaemia.

 

Gerry posts that his friend doesn't take insulin, so we can discount the (somewhat far-fetched and fanciful, but potentially possible explanation involving insulin) :

1) DKA brews over a period from under-treatment of type II DM. Ketosis detected on breath.

2) Insulin o.d. causes transient hypoglycaemia (without fixing the DKA metabolic disruption)

3) Carbohydrates fix the hypoglycaemia so he appears to get better after food.

Can't have happened like this, though, if he isn't on insulin.

 

I have known one time his sugars have gone over 30 I think it is mol or similar, and have smelt this sweet smell on his breath, and in the store was the second time.

 

We sat near the main entrance for over half an hour while he had some food and a drink and there was no police presence.

 

Gerry

 

I concurr with the above respondent : you were so worried about your mate being banned from a store but didn't seek medical help for his episode of decreased consciousness?

 

If you don't understand diabetic emergencies and don't know if you should give someone sugar or insulin (and they are safely able to have food or drink, so not unconscious) : give them sugar/fast acting carbs.

If they are hyperglycaemic ; you won't make it much worse and it can be "sorted out" in hospital - your "wrong choice" is unlikely to cause them long term harm.

If (however) they are hypoglycaemic you may well save their life / prevent them dying until qualified help arrives.

However, both rely not only on the sugar/carbs but also calling for medical help for the diabetic emergency.

 

As an aside "his insurers and DVLA know" is unconvincing since they may know he is diabetic, but this may not be the whole story : they are unlikely to take no action if they are aware he is diabetic with episodes of decreased consciousness / his episodes of labyrinthitis requiring him to lie on the floor.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/232964/At_a_glance.pdf

 

Page 8 regarding his labyrinthitis

Page 35 regarding his diabetes (including both his episodes of decreased consciousness and the peripheral neuropathy you mention).

[BazzaS]

Stu 007

 

Thanks for the files I have not had time to digest them fully as yet but will.

 

Bambert

 

I have known one time his sugars have gone over 30 I think it is mol or similar, and have smelt this sweet smell on his breath, and in the store was the second time. Although he was disorientated he was not abusive more in a state of shock, unstable on his feet but fully compos mentis.

 

He does not have a mental condition although he has been prone to recurring bouts of labyrinthitis and once on the floor has difficulty to get up. He has told me even on his hands and knees he seems to want to roll over onto his back, the only medication prescribed was sea sickness pills but as he sails these seem of no benefit. He lives a normal life and is a well respected family man, and it is very rare he misses his medication to keep his sugars in check but there is the odd unexpected occasion it happens. He notified the DVLA and his insurers who have not imposed any special terms and conditions. As with the labyrinthitis this is prone to happen at any time. This affects nothing else apart from he has a tendency to stagger to the right and if he falls has great difficulty in getting up, plus diabetic neuropathy in his feet and legs do not help the situation. I know he is very self conscious about this, which I feel exacerbates the situation especially when under stress or being humiliated. He has had diabetes for over 15 years and it is progressively getting to the point where oral medication will not suffice but the bouts of labyrinthitis have only come on over the last 5 years after he had an unexplained haematuria episode and he has had several more since over the years. Even if he loses weight and the diabetes abates he was told the nerve damage was unlikely to rectify itself and it was an issue he would have to live with, but there are other complications caused by the nerve damage.

 

Yes it was caught not only on cctv but also on my phone video recorder. A request and the fee was sent but the store, as explained in another post, they will and have made it difficult to obtain a copy although the request was shortly after the event occurred. The staff appear to have little or no first aid training, they only know how to eject a person off of the premises, as although it was said that the police were called which he agreed to they saw him off the premises prior to their arrival and no ambulance was called.

We sat near the main entrance for over half an hour while he had some food and a drink and there was no police presence.

 

Gerry

 

Did he or you say at the time " He's diabetic" or "he's not drunk, he has diabetes ". Does he have a "diabetic alert card" and show this (given he was by your description "fully compos mentis"), or a "MedicAlert" bracelet?

Edited October 21, 2013 by BazzaS

[gpmsc]

Hi

 

Firstly I am not a doctor and know little about diabetes apart from what I have googled. My friend's health is managed by his GP, a diabetic consultant and a neurology consultant. What I do know is he has an odour on his breath when he misses medication or food for long periods of time. He tends to eat protein rather than food with a high starch content. He told me that he had had diabetes for several years before it was diagnosed and was told that it had already caused severe nerve damage to his hip, leg and feet and this is obvious when he walks. He has a tendency to stumble when trying to negotiate around obstacles or trying to step over anything. He lives on his own and I visited him when he had a severe bout of labyrinthitis, or what I considered a severe bout as he could not get off the bed and when he did he staggered to a door to use as a support and just swung back and forth as the door opened and closed. After several weeks he improved but could not walk in a straight line toe to heel unaided. When the labyrinthitis comes on he seems to have a tendency to lose his sense of balance and stagger to the right. He is so conscious of this he has put marching studs in his shoes to aid his walking to try to get the same click either side when he walks. When my wife and I visited him and he was filling in a holiday insurance form it came out that when he applied for a new driving licence he had to notify them and he also ticked the form on his insurance renewal.

 

As there was no restaurant in store and he seemed perfectly capable of going in by himself I waited in the car, but as he was taking so long I wondered where he had got to and when I got into the store I caught the tail end of the incident when the manager and the security staff were involved and being very unfriendly. I did not call an ambulance because when we got to the car he told me he would be ok until we got home and could take his medication but it was clearly visible he was upset over the incident. I have never seen a bracelet on his wrist nor do I know whether he carries a card. As I stated in a previous post it was only my assumption, knowing he was diabetic, that a coma was a possibility but he assured me he was ok. When I said he was given a clean bill of health this meant his condition was stable, not that he was no longer diabetic, and his medical adviser told him he was happy with his blood sugar level.

 

I appreciate all the advice that has been offerred regarding diabetes although I have found a lot of this on the internet myself now but do not have the time necessary to trawl through it and come to any medical based conclusions. I wish to obtain the cctv record as I feel the store has not dealt appropriately with this matter. Both the last two posts raised the matter of calling an ambulance and I would like to see whether there is any evidence that an ambulance should have been called whilst he was in the store. His diabetes is being monitored and controlled by health professionals, which is not within my remit. What I want to know is whether the store has complied with their duty of care as they are prevaricating when the correct procedures have been followed to obtain the cctv record, the payment made and all the necessary information provided.

 

Gerry

[BazzaS]

Hi

 

Firstly I am not a doctor and know little about diabetes apart from what I have googled. My friend's health is managed by his GP, a diabetic consultant and a neurology consultant. What I do know is he has an odour on his breath when he misses medication or food for long periods of time. He tends to eat protein rather than food with a high starch content. He told me that he had had diabetes for several years before it was diagnosed and was told that it had already caused severe nerve damage to his hip, leg and feet and this is obvious when he walks. He has a tendency to stumble when trying to negotiate around obstacles or trying to step over anything. He lives on his own and I visited him when he had a severe bout of labyrinthitis, or what I considered a severe bout as he could not get off the bed and when he did he staggered to a door to use as a support and just swung back and forth as the door opened and closed. After several weeks he improved but could not walk in a straight line toe to heel unaided. When the labyrinthitis comes on he seems to have a tendency to lose his sense of balance and stagger to the right. He is so conscious of this he has put marching studs in his shoes to aid his walking to try to get the same click either side when he walks. When my wife and I visited him and he was filling in a holiday insurance form it came out that when he applied for a new driving licence he had to notify them and he also ticked the form on his insurance renewal.

 

As there was no restaurant in store and he seemed perfectly capable of going in by himself I waited in the car, but as he was taking so long I wondered where he had got to and when I got into the store I caught the tail end of the incident when the manager and the security staff were involved and being very unfriendly. I did not call an ambulance because when we got to the car he told me he would be ok until we got home and could take his medication but it was clearly visible he was upset over the incident. I have never seen a bracelet on his wrist nor do I know whether he carries a card. As I stated in a previous post it was only my assumption, knowing he was diabetic, that a coma was a possibility but he assured me he was ok. When I said he was given a clean bill of health this meant his condition was stable, not that he was no longer diabetic, and his medical adviser told him he was happy with his blood sugar level.

 

I appreciate all the advice that has been offerred regarding diabetes although I have found a lot of this on the internet myself now but do not have the time necessary to trawl through it and come to any medical based conclusions. I wish to obtain the cctv record as I feel the store has not dealt appropriately with this matter. Both the last two posts raised the matter of calling an ambulance and I would like to see whether there is any evidence that an ambulance should have been called whilst he was in the store. His diabetes is being monitored and controlled by health professionals, which is not within my remit. What I want to know is whether the store has complied with their duty of care as they are prevaricating when the correct procedures have been followed to obtain the cctv record, the payment made and all the necessary information provided.

 

Gerry

 

It remains that it is difficult for you to claim "they should have called an ambulance" if you then waited with him for 30 mins and didn't do so either ......

If you didn't need to (since he told you not to), why should they? (you weren't there for most of his interaction with them, perhaps he told them not to, too?).

 

Who has applied for the CCTV footage?. You can only ask for footage showing yourself, so if you (rather than he) has applied they are within their rights NOT to supply footage that shows him before you were present .....

[gpmsc]

BazzaS

 

I find your replies unhelpful and argumentative and respectfully request you no longer reply to any further posts I may wish to put up on this site.

 

Gerry

[BazzaS]

BazzaS

 

I find your replies unhelpful and argumentative and respectfully request you no longer reply to any further posts I may wish to put up on this site.

 

Gerry

 

You may find they don't agree with your aims & desires, but if they aren't wrong surely they are valid for discussion.

 

I suppose it depends if you are seeking advice (where you may hear viewpoints you disagree with) or merely validation.

 

If you only want validation of your views, then make this clear in your posts & I won't reply.

 

Otherwise, provided I can argue the points I make and my posts are factual correct, and don't use foul or abusive language, I'll carry on posting (highlighting where I think something is wrong and WHY) unless asked to stop by the site team.

 

Why should I not point out (like the Seagate drive thread) where your advice is potentially harmful to others who might take it.

 

If you are going to post about a friend unwell with diabetes, why should I not post advice on dealing with a diabetic emergency (since you appear not to have done so for an emergency, though it now seems from your replies that it may never have been a true diabetic emergency ....)

 

I note you have said you find my advice unhelpful and argumentative, but I suspect that is because it doesn't agree with what you want to hear.

If you think it is wrong then by all means say why : but to date you haven't actually suggested it is wrong, only that it isn't what you want to hear ......

[citizenB]

 

Who has applied for the CCTV footage?. You can only ask for footage showing

yourself, so if you (rather than he) has applied they are within their rights

NOT to supply footage that shows him before you were present .....

 

You might not welcome the advice, but this is indeed correct. Plus, if your Barrister friend drafted a Subject Access Request for you that demanded a response within 14 days , it could be ignored by the company. The Information Commissioner allows for 40 calendar days.

 

I find nothing argumentative within BazzaS posting and it would be very sad indeed if you were to deprive yourself of advice simply because it doesn't coincide with the advice you want.

[edjama]

I concur with the above, you came for advice and should not dismiss said advice because it isn't what you want to hear.

What is your intention once you get the CCTV? It will not have sound so, as long as the staff are not manhandling your friend it could still give the appearance they were escorting a drunk from the store. You stated early on you had recorded most of the incident, and wanted the footage to compae. But later stated you only went in after realising your friend had been longer than he should.

 

BazzaS isn't arguing with you, Merely pointing out questions which at some point you may have to respond to. If the store are insisting your friend was drunk then they at some point will get advise from their legal team, and these points, such as you videoing the incident rather than seek medical help yourself will form the bigger part of their defence, so it is important you know this now.

 

I think your getting carried away with the CCTV anyhow. What complaints have you made so far? Maybe it would be better for your friend to lodge a complaint at head office, sent recorded, outlining what happened and attach a letter from his doctor stating he does indeed have a medical condition(s) which could lead to the appearance/smell of being drunk. Even better, he could state that he medically believes your friend is not a heavy drinker and therefore unlikely to be in that state, at that time of day.