Double red lines private land

[lookinforinfo]

http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/redroutes

 

if the 'ticket'

 

does not say:

PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE

 

and ONLY

 

those three exact words.

 

them its a speculative invoice

 

treat as you normally would those pieces of hamster bedding

 

dx

 

On their website they call their invoices "Parking Charge Notice" so I wouldn't take too much notice of them.

[renegadeimp]

Even though they call it a Parking charge notice, it is still well worth doing a bit of checking up, just incase.

[ploddertom]

I wonder if it used to be a red route and has since been changed but no one has removed the road markings.

[ericsbrother]

It looks like a private road but the access to the bus garage may give the council enforcement powers via a byelaw so you will need to ask their highways dept about this.

[hodgey1]

I have spoken to One Stop Shopping Centre (where the ticket was issued) and they have confirmed that:

 

> They own the land, so it is private land.

 

> They put down the red lines.

 

So what do I do now? Defence Systems is registered with POPLA and it does state this on their letter.

 

The letter says that if I wish to appeal:

 

"If you believe that the charge should not be paid and wish to challenge this PCN, please write to.... All correspondence must include your name, address, reference number and vehicle registration. You must supply evidence as to why you were in violation of the terms and conditions as displayed on the contractual warning signs erected on the land. etc. etc.

 

If the appeal is unsuccessful you will be provided with the contact details of the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA) and a unique appeal reference. "

 

I am not going to argue that the vehicle was not in violation of the terms but I would like to argue that they lost exactly zero revenue from my parking there and that the red lines were in terrible condition and the warning signs are tiny! (The big, red signs are for entering the bus lane, which the vehicle didn't do).

[filrobbo]

I would just send them a letter saying you will take it up with the land owner and you do not want to do

business with them or enter any contract with them do not pay them any money

Edited August 29, 2013 by filrobbo

[dx100uk]

you have your definitive proof in their letter

 

they put the red lines down

it is their private land

 

thus they are purely graffiti [as its private land]

 

pers i'd simply be writing to defence systems with a copy of that letter

 

stating you have no intention of paying their 'speculative invoice'

 

there is no such thing as a red route on private land

so thus, go swivel

 

dx

[ploddertom]

If they put down the red lines are they trying to imitate the Council & are the Council aware of what they have done.

[hodgey1]

So, I have decided, for better or worse, to send them a letter. I appreciate all of your input thus far and I am just taking a slightly (in my eyes) safer route by sending them a letter stating why I am not going to pay the charge they have levied against me and why. I have not mentioned the word "appeal" anywhere and I have not stated who was driving the car or whether I agree with the contravention they are charging me for.

 

I believe that they haven't adhered to the letter of the law and definitely not to the BPA Code of Practice. If nothing else, this will provide me (and therefore you) with an interesting response.

 

I'm not usually the type of person to stand up to anyone so ignoring them in the old fashioned sense would be too hard for me.

 

I don't think I should post the letter or details of it here, I hope that's the right thing to do.

 

But, if it comes to it, I will look further into whether they are allowed to imitate the council's red lines and whether it was really them who put them there (I suspect not, despite my earlier phone call).

[dx100uk]

there is no 'law' involved

 

dx

[XjimboX]

So, I have decided, for better or worse, to send them a letter. I appreciate all of your input thus far and I am just taking a slightly (in my eyes) safer route by sending them a letter stating why I am not going to pay the charge they have levied against me and why. I have not mentioned the word "appeal" anywhere and I have not stated who was driving the car or whether I agree with the contravention they are charging me for.

 

I believe that they haven't adhered to the letter of the law and definitely not to the BPA Code of Practice. If nothing else, this will provide me (and therefore you) with an interesting response.

 

I'm not usually the type of person to stand up to anyone so ignoring them in the old fashioned sense would be too hard for me.

 

I don't think I should post the letter or details of it here, I hope that's the right thing to do.

 

But, if it comes to it, I will look further into whether they are allowed to imitate the council's red lines and whether it was really them who put them there (I suspect not, despite my earlier phone call).

 

I have just been sent the same letter dating back to may. I am also have no idea what to do? This is helping tho.

I pulled outside weatherspoons my mate jumped in and I drove off, I was stopped about 10-15 seconds!

The letter says 'this charge has been lawfully issued and collection procedure will be processed in accordance with the administration of justice act 1970' if that means anything?

If it is private land this company defence systems be working like clampers that are illegal now!

 

Have u had a reply yet?

[Homer67]

Private road therefore red route lines do not apply, either ignore or send them the dispute any charges letter and refer to their reason for charging you as unenforceable.

[Horspool]

I have just been sent the same letter dating back to may. I am also have no idea what to do? This is helping tho.

I pulled outside weatherspoons my mate jumped in and I drove off, I was stopped about 10-15 seconds!

The letter says 'this charge has been lawfully issued and collection procedure will be processed in accordance with the administration of justice act 1970' if that means anything?

If it is private land this company defence systems be working like clampers that are illegal now!

 

Have u had a reply yet?

 

Me too! I have just had the same letter.

[ericsbrother]

Tell then that it is an offence to claim money by misrepresentation

and using a false instrument to gain a pecuniary advantage such as claiming red lines painted on private land

mean anything under law is misrepresentation.

 

If they continue to claim that procedures are correct

 

ask them what section of the Act they are refering to as it covers the appointment of judges

and the collection of death duties so are they high court judges or recently deceased?

 

they are trying to frighten you and a complaint regarding the false instrument to local council

or trading standards may get somewhere but I suspect the police will be wary of investigating

unless someone else make a decision about the veracity of the lines.

[Frosty0908]

Correct me if I am wrong but

 

I am pretty sure that's where buses turn to go to the bus stop as can be seen in the google map link,

 

It's been a long time since I have had to go up to the one stop shopping center don't know if this bears any significance.

 

This leads me to believe that the red route is official obviously

a parking charge notice so I am not sure just throwing in my 2 cents

[Homer67]

It has been proved the area is a private road so no need to question it, road markings on private roads are graffiti and not enforceable.

[Frosty0908]

It has been proved the area is a private road so no need to question it, road markings on private roads are graffiti and not enforceable.

 

The only reason I made the comment was I know the majority of roads leading to that point are a red route and I know the bus uses that island to turn round and doing it by the handbook and not touching the paint on the island it is quite tight. If they have confirmed that it is there land then my points mean nothing at all but I am cautious of taking a companies word from an employee.

 

Not trying to stir things up just playing devils advocate and learned from my mistakes before.

[Horspool]

Hi,

can anybody advise me on what to do next.

 

I had the same letter from Defence Systems,

 

I wrote to them saying that I would take up the matter with One Stop.

 

I e-mailed One Stop but they never replied.

 

I have now had a second letter from Defence Systems asking for £100

and increasing to £150 plus costs if I do not pay within 14 days.

[dx100uk]

read erics post

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

You can ignore the letters from defence systems

or

you can ask them for sight of the contract with the landowner that entitles them to form contracts with the public in their own name

and then ask where the supposed contract that you entered into is.

 

It is not a case of red lines meaning anything or nothing, it is how the terms of the contract are offered for consideration.

 

I bet there is no giant sign saying what you are signing up to and then they have no argument.

 

I you want to muddy the waters a little

you can ask them about how they justify the monies claimed using the decision of Cavendish Square Holdings v El Makdessi (2012)

 

In this case the judge makes it very clear when a clause in a contract is a penalty and when it is commercial justification.

 

Parking Eye are very fond of sayng their charges are commercially justified

but the judge here is clear about contract law regarding level playing field and liquidated losses

so no parking co can really claim that the £100+ is anything other than a penalty and they use outdated case law to push their point.