Daniel Silvermans charges add to alleged debt as they threaten me with BR.

[sarahsacc]

I'm new to this forum so here is a very brief history;

 

I am a business owner I had goods from a supplier back in March 2012

I couldn't afford to pay for all the stock so I sent a lot of it back to reduce the debt owed.

I was charged a 10% restock fee which wasn't mentioned until I received the credit note and it was clearly displayed then?

 

When I queried this I was told this was in their T&C's (it was never mentioned until this point).

 

I bashed out an agreement with said supplier.

I was able to make one payment but could not afford to pay the full amount the 2nd week

however I did still pay some and each time I sent a payment I also sent an email to accompany this.

 

yesterday without warning I received an email from Daniels Silverman demanding not only the final debt but they have now added 15% + VAT + interest

and has pushed the final debt to phenomenal levels!!

 

On top of this and in their very first message they have threatened bailiffs and personal bankruptcy.

 

In less than 24 hours they have made me feel very ill and extremely worried can they be so aggressive right from the start?

 

I have offered a payment plan and they have instantly rejected it and then told me they would file for personal bankruptcy

- the size of their text has increased as though I'm some sort of idiot!!

 

My question is to anyone in the know how do I stand with these people?

 

Do I stand my ground with them or not?

 

In just over 24 hours they have threatened me with everything possible and this is only over 3 emails.

 

What do I do? I tried to phone but the man on the phone was incrediably rude and hung up on me:jaw:

 

Any help or advice greatly appreciated

[ims21]

I've moved your other posts here and made them invisible as they are to do with the same thing.

 

Please keep to this one thread for this issue.

 

The guys will be happy to advise as soon as they are available

[zydeco]

Hi sarahscc,

first thing, in the words of Douglas Adams, "DON'T PANIC!"

 

do a search for Daniels Silverman on this site, ( top right ) and have a read until more knowledgeable caggers come to help.

 

here's a couple of quotes from another thread,

Daniels Silverman always add more on and then after a couple of letters they usually offer "a discount " if paid quickly.

Daniels Silverman always add some on, in contravention of OFT Guidance, and then use it as a negotiating tool. Speaking of tools, Daniels Silverman are very much second-rate, and not too hard to deal with.

[Halibutt]

Hi Sarah,

 

Certainly don't panic.

 

A threat of bailiffs is pretty silly as they'd need a court order against you first - one which you'd broken! You're nowhere near that yet. It's just that - a threat and scare tactic.

 

Bankruptcy? If THEY want to file for your bankruptcy, it would cost THEM the fee which they would have to reclaim through the bankruptcy judgement - if granted. If you're already in difficulty but have shown willing to sort out your financial affairs as a business owner, then a court would probably look dimly on the application, especially in light of the current double-dip recession and the government's insistence that small businesses should be afforded every chance and support (yeah right, but that's their official line).

 

If you were made bankrupt, your most pressing (legally) debts would need to be satisfied first and a supplier of goods/services would be way down the pecking order and any monies/assets remaining would be equally spread between creditors. Again, this is a scare tactic.

 

You're best off communicating with them in writing only - it makes sure they can't be abusive or bully you and you'll have a printed record of exactly what's been said.

 

Can you please scan the letters you've received and post them here (removing any personally identifying info first) and also a brief chronological breakdown as to what's happened and amounts involved.

 

People will then be in a better position to help you with full information given.

 

Don't panic, help is at hand.

 

Good luck,

 

H. x

[dx100uk]

threat-o-grams [or emails]

 

file under ignore me thinks.

 

 

dx

[Halibutt]

Just thinking, presumably you paid VAT on the original order or the VAT was included in the original charge. It's illegal for them to charge VAT twice and that amounts to tax fraud - a criminal offence...

[Bang!]

Could you tell us the legal status of your business? Is it a company with you as director/shareholder, or are you a firm/sole trader?

 

If it is a limited company, have you ever placed yourself as guarantor for any transaction?

 

Also, roughly how much is owed?

 

Do you feel given time you can make payments without any problems?

 

Regarding the restocking fee, that is fairly normal, but it might be an idea to check the T&Cs and to copy them up here, or send a link to them instead.

 

Lastly, all the bailiff/bankruptcy stuff as Halibutt says is typical incorrect scaremongering - as they to win in court after sending a tonne of letters, before it can even head in that direction.

[lookinforinfo]

Never phone these idiots-keep everything in writing.

 

Silverman do not have a contract with you so they have no agreement from you to charge for their actions. It is also against the OFT guidelines

for them to act in this way.Therefore take copies of their letters and send them to your local Trading Standards office and complain about them

threatening bankruptcy when you are actually paying off the debt in a regular fashion . In any event, Silverman do not have the authority to

instigate bankruptcy proceedings against you. Do not have any further contact with Silverman and DO NOT pay any money to them.

 

Next, write to your supplier explaining that you have reported Silverman to Trading Standards as they are in breach of the OFT guidelines relating to the

collection of Debts and that you will not deal with them in future.Point out that they [the supplier] is responsible for the actions of Silverman.

 

Point out how disappointed you are that they have taken this step as you are paying them on a regular basis albeit perhaps not in accordance

with the initial agreement. Explain that your finances are tight at the moment but that you are determined to pay them which can easily be

evidenced by your continued payments. Then suggest another payment plan that you are certain that you can adhere to and ask if they would

kindly agree to it. [it would obviously be a help if you could send a payment with your letter.] Advise them that you will keep in touch with them

while the amount remains outstanding and hope that they will also. Reiterate that you would prefer to deal direct with the supplier so that they will

eventually get 100% of their money without them having to give away a percentage to any further debt collection companies.

[citizenB]

I was charged a 10% restock fee which wasn't mentioned until I received the credit note and it was clearly displayed then?

 

 

 

Were you ever supplied with a copy of these terms and conditions ?

[sarahsacc]

Well here goes everyone - i'm copying and pasting the emails that have been sent relating to this matter (Identifying details removed) Please note the first email from Daniels Silverman start at the bottom and work up to the latest email at the top...

 

 

This last email at the top was sent at 13:26pm today (26.06.12) after my latest email to them.

 

 

 

Dear XXXXX

 

I repeat, we do not accept your offer of £50.00 per week.

 

You can be made bankrupt for any debt over £750.00. Your debt is well in excess of this amount. Bankruptcy is the next step.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Account Manager

Litigation Department

 

email:

web:

tel:

fax:

 

Daniels Silverman Limited

210 Queens Dock Commercial Centre

Norfolk Street

Liverpool

L1 0BG

Registered Office : Castle Chambers, 43 Castle Street, Liverpool L2 9TL

Company No. 3998129 VAT No. GB 636 6349 17

 

 Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

________________________________________

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Sent: 26 June 2012 12:32

To: XXXXXXXXXXXX

Subject: RE: Final Demand - Outstanding invoice due to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Dear XXXXXXXX

 

Thank you for your correspondence. Unfortunately we are not in a position where we can offer more than £50.00 per week at this present moment in time. As stated before to XXXXXXXXXXX and to yourselves we are currently not in a position to pay more than this at present we will of course when sales improve pay more to clear the debt when we have extra funds but at the moment we are struggling with cash flow so this is all I can sensibly offer you for the time being. We do not want this debt to hang over us and we do want to clear this as soon as we can but I can not jeopardise the whole business just for one debt.

 

If you can let me know where you would like me to send the £50.00 per week payment too that would be great. The size of this debt would not warrant or involve my personal bankruptcy.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Sarah

please consider the environment - only print this email if necessary

 

PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL

This electronic mail transmission is intended for the named recipients only. It may contain private and confidential information. If this has come to you in error you must take no action based upon it, nor must you copy it or show it to anyone; please telephone us immediately and return the original to us at the email address above.

 

We cannot accept any liability for any loss or damage sustained as a result of software viruses. It is your responsibility to carry out such virus checking as is necessary before opening any attachment which may be included with this message.

 

________________________________________

Subject: RE: Final Demand - Outstanding invoice due to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:29:32 +0100

From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Dear XXXXXXXXX

 

The breakdown of the debt is as follows:

 

XXXXX 5/3/2012 12883.84

XXXXX 12/3/2012 1.57-

XXXXX 29/5/2012 5503.25-

 

7379.02

 

less payments 600.59

 

Bal o/s to client 6778.43

 

Collection charges 1016.76

VAT 203.35

Interest 267.84

 

Balance on letter 8266.38

 

You received these goods from our client in March. Our client has tried to assist you by taking a large proportion of the goods back & crediting you for them & they then agreed a payment plan with you in good faith. However you only made one payment & defaulted, then made another small payment.

 

Your offer of £50.00 per week is unacceptable, that would take in excess of 3 years to pay.

 

If you are unable to improve on this offer we are instructed to proceed to legal action. Due to the size of your debt, this could involve your personal bankruptcy.

 

We await your urgent response.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Account Manager

Litigation Department

 

email:

web:

tel:

fax:

 

Daniels Silverman Limited

210 Queens Dock Commercial Centre

Norfolk Street

Liverpool

L1 0BG

Registered Office : Castle Chambers, 43 Castle Street, Liverpool L2 9TL

Company No. 3998129 VAT No. GB 636 6349 17

 

 Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

________________________________________

 

From: Me

Sent: 25 June 2012 17:17

To:

Subject: RE: Final Demand - Outstanding invoice due to

Importance: High

FAO Sue Long

 

Thank you for your email which I received today. I'm very disappointed to see that we have been passed over to you by our suppliers XXXXXXXXXXX. We have made payment to the debt owed although we have not been able to maintain the levels in which they required as our sales have been considerably low and have been for some time now. Unfortunately despite various sales campaigns and offers we have not managed to attract more custom. This has been explained to XXXXXXXX and even conveyed to the director when he visited us - not that that has seemed to make any difference now.

 

I'm not happy at all that this has happened and the very fact that you are threatening us with court action already is appalling as I have only received notification today of XXXXXXX intentions as I had no response to my email to them last week on this matter. I will make arrangements with you to make payments at a rate of £50.00 per week as at the moment we have no more that we can dedicate to this debt this is not negotiable as we are not able to pay anything more.

 

After speaking to XXXXXXXXX today I did request that you call me on my mobile but I feel that under the circumstances and to protect myself I want everything documented in writing so please do NOT ring my mobile tomorrow, you may email me or put in writing anything you want to convey instead.

 

Furthermore I would like a complete breakdown of the debt owed as there is cause for dispute as it appears that I have an outstanding credit on this account - I will verify this with my bookkeeepers before I comment on the further.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Sarah

 

________________________________________

Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 12:56:18 +0100

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Subject: Final Demand - Outstanding invoice due to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

 

 

 

FINAL DEMAND

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

Re:- Our Client XXXXXXXXXXXX

Account Name:- XXXXXXXXXXXX

Our File Ref:-

Outstanding Balance £8,266.38

We have been instructed by our above named client to recover the above outstanding debt. We now demand immediate repayment of £8,266.38. Unless full payment is sent directly to us within 7 days we will take final recovery action through the Courts, which may lead to:-

- You having to pay all solicitors fees and court costs

- Judgment being awarded against you in Court

- Debt details being registered affecting your ability to obtain credit in future

- Bailiffs calling at your premises

Please telephone our office immediately on xxxxxxxxxxxx to discuss further.

YOU NOW HAVE SEVEN DAYS TO REPAY IN FULL. ACTION WILL BE TAKEN AGAINST YOU THROUGH THE COURTS IF YOU FAIL TO COMPLY WITH THIS DEMAND.

PAY ONLINE AT xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx OR FOLLOW THE PAYMENT INSTRUCTIONS BELOW.

 

Yours Faithfully,

 

 

Sue Long

 

Daniels Silverman Limited - 210 Queens Dock Commercial Centre, Norfolk Street, Liverpool, L1 0BG

Tel: - Fax: - Web:

 

________________________________________

 

P A Y M E N T P R O C E D U R E

Visit us online at xxxxxxxxxxxxx to make payment by card, send payment with this slip by return to Daniels Silverman Limited at the address above or call us on to make arrangements to pay over the phone.

All cheques must be made payable to DANIELS SILVERMAN LIMITED.

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Client Name: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Payment enclosed in respect of your ref XXXXXXXXXX

Balance outstanding £8,266.38

 

 Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

 

________________________________________

[sarahsacc]

I will also answer your previous questions.

 

In relation to business status I am a sole trader only not a limited or PLC company.

 

The restock fee I can honestly say we have never seen the T&C's and I do not seem to have a copy on file either.

 

The VAT is cause for concern (I'm VAT registered) and I didn't think they could charge me VAT on the debt owed as it has been added initially - my bookkeeper seems to think this may be VAT added onto their solicitors fees??

 

With regards to the payment I had fully intended to pay them the one thing I truly didn't want to agree to was a payment plan that I just couldn't stick too so I offered less to enable me to offer more when I have it but the market is so slow at the moment I don't want to guarantee payments I might not be able to make later which is what has lead me to this point now!

 

I have no intention of ringing these people again (lesson learnt there) I will however follow everything up with a recorded delivery letter as read in a previous thread.

 

I will also be taking the advice given in earlier message and contact the original supplier and let them know how the debt collection agency they have employed are acting in this way.

[zydeco]

hi again sarah, I'm fairly new around here and I don't feel confident in giving advice so ignore what I say if you want but,

 

Collection charges 1016.76

VAT 203.35

So they think they can charge you over 1200 quid for sending a few emails? numpties.

 

As I posted earlier these clowns are known for adding unlawful/unenforceable charges to accounts and then negotiating down.

 

In your position threatening bankruptcy is stupid unless you have hidden assets?

(threatening bankruptcy as a means of debt collection is a big no no and would be frowned upon in court)

 

I will also be taking the advice given in earlier message and contact the original supplier and let them know how the debt collection agency they have employed are acting in this way.

probably the best thing to do. Ignore silverman and only deal with your supplier.

 

You need to see a copy of the t&c's that applied when you opened your account with the supplier and a proper breakdown of the debt and charges.

 

"Get your ducks in line" then you can sort out what you actually owe and fight back. there is loads of information on this site and lots of people waiting to help so keep strong and remember everybody has debts, it's not a crime.

 

Z.

[sarahsacc]

Thank you Z any advice is gratefully received at the moment. Before I contact the said supplier I will contact the TS agency to c where I stand first and see who else they can be reported to. I would understand their aggressive stance if I had repeatedly ignored their emails and this has been going on for a lengthy period but they only contacted me lunch time monday!!

 

Thank you muchly

[citizenB]

Your thread has been flagged for site team as well.

[sarahsacc]

What does that mean? Sorry this is all new to me???

[citizenB]

What does that mean? Sorry this is all new to me???

 

I have just left a message for other members of the site team, who have more experience with this type of issue..

[sarahsacc]

Ok thank you muchly

[42man]

Do you still have the original terms and conditions ? Are you a Ltd Company ? or sole trader ? partnership ?

 

I suggest that you write back stating that you dispute the amount....what would the debt be without the charges and 'collection' fees

 

And do send your emails to the Office Of Fair Trading too....

[42man]

Daniels Silverman clearly state that they are 'proud memebers of the CSA' an organisation which clearly states in their CODE OF CONDUCT

 

f) Unless instructed otherwise, accept all

reasonable offers by debtors to pay by

instalments, provided acceptable evidence of

non-ability to pay is given.

 

b) Not bring unreasonable pressure to bear on

the debtor in default of payment.

 

q) Where a debt or the sum owed is disputed, as

soon as is practicable, supply information to the

debtor in support of the claim. Where no

information has been supplied by the creditor,

obtain the required support, or failing that cease

collection action

[42man]

By being in breach of their own code of conduct puts them in breach of CPUTR 2008

 

Get them to give you a full breakdown of how the debt is made up, challenge the excessive charges and the the restock fee if it isn't in the terms and conditions and carry on paying them back at £50 per month.

[MARTIN3030]

No doubt they will be seeking more fees from their clients for this escalation in demands.

From the reports that we see on the site,it seems nothing much changes.

I will change the thread title so that it reflects and draws awareness to the issues.

Just another one of many.

I might email Carol Hughes DS director and ask if she cares to comment ?

[MARTIN3030]

She is a registered member but has not been here for some time.

In fairness,she has offered to investigate complaints in the past,although these have been actual clients rather than those DS have been chasing.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?207371-Worst-experience-with-Daniels-Silverman-as-a-customer&p=2263485#post2263485

 

post 6

 

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?116080-Very-abusive-letter-from-debt-coll-re-parking-fine-HELP&p=1176463#post1176463

 

post 23

[MARTIN3030]

You say that you sent a lot of the stock back and have made some payments.

Can you say what the arrears were at the start and what they remained after the adjustments for the returns / payments plus the restock fee ?

 

Had you offered a repayment plan in writing to the original creditor ?

Had they indicated that they would engage debt recovery ?

[MARTIN3030]

Now it does seem a little ironic that the poster here has reported threats of BR.

 

Just look at what DS posted on their OWN website last November.

 

 

Monday 8 Aug, 2011

Credit management and collection company Daniels Silverman has seen a massive 250% increase in the number of consumers it is collecting debts from becoming insolvent through bankruptcy or individual voluntary arrangements (IVAs) in the last 6 months.

Carole Hughes, managing director, Daniels Silverman, says: “People are really struggling to make ends meet and are resorting to extreme measures to try and get rid of mounting debt. The increase in insolvencies is worrying and is likely to continue as the costs of living and unemployment rises.”

Daniels Silverman has also seen a 400% rise in the number of consumers requesting additional time to pay their debts.

Hughes adds: “Becoming insolvent should be a last resort. As outgoings increase people are asking for much more time to settle their debts and are making low repayment offers of around £1 - £10 per month. Creditors are being more flexible about repayment plans and we encourage those struggling with repayments to discuss their concerns.”

[sequenci]

Sarah, do you live in rented or mortgaged accomodation?