RBS Kwikfit Style Card, LBA from Fredricksons Int

[stevo7790]

Hello my fellow Caggers,

 

I have been a member on here for a while now, but I have been busy preparing myself for a financial onslaught due to me failing my IVA ,IVA company refused to lower my payments due to changing circumstances so failing the IVA helps in one way, but as yet not a notion of who is now after me for money, however that is another story but a little bit of a background.

 

A week last wednesday I got a lovely Wescot letter through the door which I duly ignored, followed 2 days later by the same letter, a bog standard letter telling me that they were acting on behalf of their client RBS ( Royal Bank of Jockland) and were chasing me for the sum of little under £1000.

 

As I moved address several years ago I thought thy might have tried to give my parents a bit of a hammering, I let them know in advance when the IVA failed and also an appropriate letter if the calls started comming.

Again this hasn't happened yet.

As I have had no letters from RBS just Westcot I thought I'd fire off a CCA at them just too see that the proverbial crack was.

 

FYI I know what the debt relates to but was unsure of the amount and the usual bits and pieces, I don't deny the debt but wanted to know where I stood.

 

Now I was half expecting a 'we'll have to pass you back to our client' or 'here is your CCA now deal with it' or 'oops can't get it let's pass you on to another DCA'

 

Today I opened my letter knowing it was a Wescot letter to first of all find my postal order so I'm +£1 yay! well for the time being but the letter states as follows:

 

Dear Mr imnotsharingmysurname

 

Wescot Debt Number: blablabla

Client Reference: nopeynopenope

Client: Royal Bank of Scoland

Balance: £97something hundered

 

Following your recent request for a copy of the signed agreement, our client has requested you write to the following address and state in your covering letter that this is a section 77/78 request and enclose a £1.00 postal order or cheque to our client:

 

CCA Requests

Card Customer Services

P O Box 5754

Southend on Sea

SS1 9AJ

 

Trusting the above clarifies the situation

 

Yours Faithfully

 

Mr C Cooper

 

Accounts collection controller

 

Questions I have are:

Has this now been passed back to the client?

Who if I was to, would I be sending the CCA request to, as it doesnt state RBS?

Does the 12+2 day rule still apply or are they trying to pass the buck?

Is it an idea to also CCA RBS? I'm thinking yes but it looks like they ar trying to pass the debt on.

 

The 2 letters I had didn't state they owned the debt merely acting upon behalf of RBS, I will be checking my credit file to see if any defaults have been added to my file, I'll take appropriate action in due course.

 

However after reading a lot of the post CCA letters on here I have yet to have seen this reply.

 

Can anyone shed any light on this?

 

I did a post code check on this, and it seems more than one bank re-direct their customers here, are natwest and rbs in some way affiliated?

Thanks

 

Steve

[maroondevo52]

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

 

Account no

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated ........, the contents of which are noted

 

Your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On ......... I requested that ........... supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date ........... have failed to comply with my request. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to .............., nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

 

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ............... become compliant with my request. As ................ are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

 

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file

All collection activities cease with immediate effect until ............. comply with my request from .date........... or such time as a court makes an enforcement order

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

[stevo7790]

Hello Maroondevo52,

 

Thank you very much for your reply, A question further if I may, I sent a postal order and it is currently stapled to my wescot letter, do i need to resend the postal order or because they seemed to have refused it not send it?

 

thanks again

[miss muppet]

Keep it as evidence that you sent it in the first place:)

[stevo7790]

Thankyou miss muppet, I appreciate your reply, I don't need to send another now do I?

 

Am I sending this to Wescot and not RBS? the reason for this is because I don't know the account number or have any details of the original RBS account.

 

Have I just answered my own question? lol

 

Thanks

[maroondevo52]

Hi,

 

Send it to Westcot, thinking about it, you may have been better sending the 'prove it' letter first, before the CCA request.

 

What was the debt ? loan, current account ect.

 

Regarding getting to know how much is due, you'd more than likely have to send a Subject Access Request to RBS.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[stevo7790]

Hello,

 

It was a Style Card, That I got through Kwikfit...

 

I'll get the account in dispute letter sent off and see where that gets me, if I do get a CCA then I'll SAR them.

[Surfer01]

The address in Southend is the same address for MINT cards.

[stevo7790]

Hi all,

 

Somewhere between 2005 and 2007 sorry for the vagueness, I had a kwik fit card, I got it because I needed repairs to my then car.

 

I can't remember what the outstanding balance was but it did go into my IVA. I pulled out of the IVA 2 years ago now because I thought it would be easier to deal with creditors directly.

 

I didn't and have never heard from Kwik Fit or RBS who own the card scheme in relation to his card or any balance on it.

 

Last March I received a letter from Wescott to my current address stating I owed £900, thanks to the help from you guys I sent a CCA request and then after the right amount of time had elapsed the Dispute letter, to which Wescot replied that they would close the account.

 

I don't dispute there is a debt owed but I want to see how they have come to this figure.

 

Ironically I am dealing with Fredricksons regarding an O2 debt which is wrong, I recently sent the Harassment letter and Prove it letter, then my mum rings me - I havent lived at my parents house in over 6 years, credit file shows my current address and I dont speak to them all that often to say Fredricksons are called up to 11 times a day, I thought maybe they had tried to see if I lived there as they wern't sure of my address.

 

No letters just call after call, but my dad works and my mum is retired so just ignored the phone any way.

 

They have both said I dont live there but will not give any details of where I live, even if i was to ask them, they have said I dont live there when they have actually answered the phone.

 

it turns out Fredricksons have today sent an LBA to my parents, what is annoying is I redirected all my mail to my current address and everything as I have nothing to hide, except for being more financially aware these days.

 

So what is the best course of action to take here? Fredricksons have upped the amount to £973 and obviously as this is an amount I would class as good for court I want to dispute it on the actual amount, I want to see a copy of the CCA so I know where I stand with regards to my rights and what interest they are piling on.

 

There has been no other mail from Fredricksons to my parents so need a bit of guidence as to where to go from here, my account should be in dispute should it not, even if it has been passed back to RBS?

 

Obviously if my mum had not have opened the envelope no-one would have known, I also am aware that sometime certain companies will communicate to an address you no longer live at in order to obtain a judgement easier... could that be the case here as wescot knew were i was.

 

I think I answered my own question, CCA request will go off to them for friday.

 

Thanks for any advice guys

[dx100uk]

check your cra file to whom is now named against this a/c

 

wessies cant take you to court if they have not brought the debt and sent a notice of assignment.

 

it can only be the oc that can do that.

 

threat-o-grams me thinks

 

lots of if, poss, maybe, might, could, instructed etc etc

 

dx

[stevo7790]

Hi all,

 

Well time to update this,

 

I sent the CCA letter to Wescot and they passed the account back to RBS, and then I didnt hear anything else until today...

 

The account had been passed to Fredricksons International which I didn't know and they had begun to harass my parents of whom I havent spoke to in quite a while,

 

I sent them the prove it letter and they have in turn sent me back the same letter as Wescot did,

 

Do I now need to fire of another CCA request?

or do I just tell Freds that the account is in dispute?

 

I suppose it has been since last year as I wasn't supplied a CCA.

 

In the letter freds say that are acting on behalf of their client so I guess they don't absolutely own the debt.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

[PriorityOne]

That address is also used for Tesco cards.... which are under the RBS umbrella....

[stevo7790]

Hi chaps,

 

I have an ongoing issue with RBS, sorry for the vagueness that will follow but I have very little paper work for the moment...

 

Going back to around 6 years ago I had a Style Card through Kwik Fit, ultimately going through RBS. The idea of the card was that I could use it for repairs and then had 6 months interest free to pay it back.

Around a year or so after and of no fault to this particular card i entered an IVA due to my circumstances changing, the debt from this particular card was part of the IVA.

I came out of the IVA a year ago now, as once again my circumstances changed and it seemed more feasible to make my own agreements with creditors.

 

In August last year I start getting letters from Wescot regarding the debt, now whilst I acknowledge there was some debt, I had no idea what I'd infact signed and also how the amount had got to £974, so I fired off a CCA request with a £1 postal order.

 

A month passed and I got a letter saying they were passing the debt back to the OC ( I'm aware they had gone over the 12+2 days)

 

This was the end of it until March this year, Fredricksons started sending me if maybes and could letters, which were duly ignored, I hadn't got any letters of assignment, to be honest I can't even remember getting a NoD from RBS in the 1st place, but never mind for now.

Then about a month ago Bryan Carter sent me a lovely silver letter threatening me with all sots of legalities.

I email Fredricksons through their website and basically tell them to prove it, to which I had some nonsense generated by their systems.

 

So I ring RBS, I decide enough is enough let's see what's going on. I don't have an account number or anything except the last 4 digits of the card I used to have, I have this because it's shown on my CRF.

The lady I spoke to asks and is duly given my DOB, address I resided at when I had said card and the apparent outstanding amount, as soon as I mention Style Card she says 'oh we haven't had them for years' and ' I can't find anything watsoever on the system' interesting! I think...

She gives me an address to send a request to, to find/locate my details so I send a letter simply asking for my account number as I had forgot it, and that I'd rather sort it with RBS than some DCA. Never heard anything.

 

Then as if by magic I get another letter from Bryan Carter thanking me for my last letter and they look forward to my plans to settle... odd, I thought I didn't sent them a letter.

Week later I get another letter headed 'Statement of account' with a balance of £974... I put this to one side and thought nothing more.

 

Moving onto last week another lovely shiny silver letter arrives from BC telling me and I quote 'This time is different' and they will take me to court and a CCJ should be issued, whilst I'm acutely aware this is a threat-o-gram, I know BC like to issue a summons, and with a debt of almost £1000 it's likely they can/would.

 

So doing the sensible thing today I sent 1st class recorded a CCA request to Freds with a £1 postal order and another letter to BC kindly informing them I had sent a CCA request to Freds with a copy of the CCA request.

 

However, and this brings me to the title of my thread, when Wescot took too long to reply to my original CCA request they breached the terms of fulfilling the request.

My questions are; after the 14th day the account became in dispute right? I didn't send a letter of dispute does that matter? if it doesn't matter then at any point did the account in dispute ever not become in dispute?

And should I have infact sent Freds and BC an account in dispute letter dating back to last year?

 

Thanks

 

Stevo!

[the_shadow]

Its in dispute until they send the response to the s77/s78, they may "breach" the 12 days required but there is no bar to them sending the response later.

 

They know the regs and statutes and whilst they may not conform to them as much as we like or at all, they dont really need to be told the account is in dispute if no agreement has been sent... be wary on what you class that dispute as stopping tho as even in breach they may still... sell the debt, chase you for it, report your non payment to the credit agencies, issue proceedings although not obtain judgement until they fix the breach.

 

S.

[alfwithhair]

Yes you should have sent Wetcloths the account in dispute letter.

having said that, you could of just told Fred's & Farter that the account is disputed as wetcloths are in default of your CCA request of (date)

Have Fred's bought this debt?

[stevo7790]

I haven't had a notice of assignment and nothing else to say the debt has been sold on... It looks like it's doing the rounds, but my guess is that if wescot couldn't find it, RBS had nothing on file then Bryan Carter/Freds aren't going to have much luck... however we'll see what the next 14 days brings, they should respectively see their letters tomorrow and the clock starts ticking.

 

I'll bear in mind about it technically still being in dispute and will let them know upon a reply from either, as the_shadow said they should know the laws and statues as they are the ones throwing them around, and if they don't I'll just have to remind them

 

Before I head off for the night,

 

I'm aware that no CCA is an absolute defence, and that by providing a reconstruction they cover the requirements of the s77/78,

 

however if it went to court and they don't have or can't get the original what is the course of action?

is a strike out applied due to lack of docs?

 

( i know id have to apply for that) or is it stayed until as such a time as they can produce the requested docs?

 

I'm learning as much as I can but doing it this way helps me get it right

[alfwithhair]

Creditors are getting judgement in their favour now with just a reconstructed agreement and statement showing account usage.

 

It is a Judge lottery, no guarantees now on unenforceable agreement

[stevo7790]

Yes I have seen this,

 

as for the reconstruction how accurate does it have to be?

What I'm getting at is;

 

Freds can't find my CCA so send me say a generic RBS agreement and also standard T&C's I would know that these didnt relate to my account, so is there an importance to the recon?

 

in terms of the information contained within it?

 

Again I'm not disputing a debt exists, but I do really need to see what it was I put my name down for and to check for any added charges...

 

I can't do this with an incorrect CCA and/or docs.I'm not near a court stage yet, but trying to prepare myself regardless.

 

anyone?

[the_shadow]

Carey vs HSBC is your friend here... the reconstruction MUST be true, honest and accurate.

 

The terms must be correct, if they have been varied then the varied terms should be shown AFAIK, one thing I know MUST be on there for sure is your name and address at the time the debt was taken out.

 

S.

[mystery1]

To be honest i'm not sure that your account is "in dispute". If a creditor fails to comply with s 77/78/79 they cannot enforce. There is no dispute. If the amount is wrong or the interest rate was wrong etc then you have a dispute. Failure to supply a copy is a minor point which only becomes major if they go to trial without curing it which they allowed to if they are able. If they do you will lose. If they don't you should win.

 

As to why creditors are winning with recons Carey at 189 "There is no positive allegation that it was an IEA and indeed there is nothing at all from the Claimant, Mr Adris as to the circumstances in which the agreement was entered into. There is no plea that he did not sign it or did not recall signing it or anything of that kind. The plea of IEA depends entirely on paragraph 9."

 

Therefore if a creditor shows an account that has been used and supply's a recon then you have to make a primie facie case that it is either inaccurate or doesn't comply with CCA 74 in a way which makes it unenforceable. If you don't the statements and recon show on the balance of probabilities you have an agreement. You need more than just saying it's wrong, you need to explain realistically why.

 

M1

[stevo7790]

Thankyou Shadow, that sorts it for me

 

Mystery1, I appreciate your comments... it does throw another angle on whats going on. But surely if a dca wants money, you ask for your cca and they cant obtain it then there is a dispute? I'm actually interested in your 'primie facie' comment im aware you use this if a document appears to be false, am i correct?

 

The point I was trying to make was i cant remember what i signed, it might have been an agreement or anything... it was a long time ago. I dont doubt i owe money on the account because I do and I know it, but RBS dont have anything on file according to them and since they are the OC how am i meant to see what I signed, I could probably send a SAR but if they haven't got the CCA by using a generic recon surely they could say what they like?

 

It's making more sense now though

[mystery1]

What is your dispute ?

 

They are in default. There doesn't appear to be a dispute.

 

Primie facie means on the face of it. My point is that you need to say, for example, that you did not sign this and then they have to prove it. Bear in mind that lying in court is not advisable. If you aren't sure then saying so means the Judge will use balance of probabilities to decide if you did or didn't. I wouldn't fancy your chances.

 

M1

[stevo7790]

OK,

 

Update for this,

 

Today I have had a Fred's letter, reading as follows:

 

We tank you for you letter dated 18th july 2011 requesting documentation.

 

We are unable to provide this information, If you require documentation you can request this from our client at he address below.

 

The royal bank of scotland

bla bla bla

 

 

In the meantime please confirm how you intend discharging the above outstanding balance.

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

So where do i go from here?

 

RBS have never been in touch with me regarding this, only fredricksons... so based on this should i now send them the in dispute letter?

[PriorityOne]

Freds. have an obligation to forward your request to the original creditor; not you. The request is quite clear with this anyway.... and if they cannot comply, then the account is legally "in dispute" yes.

 

If this account is pre-April 2007, then it will fall under CCA 1974, which means that you retain the protection of sec. 127 (3).... and they will need the original to re-enforce through the courts.

 

Time to raise a COMPLAINT and put them to strict proof using CPUTR 2008. Freds. and their sols. (Carter) are quite tenacious though... I am currently dealing with them myself.

 

Should you need to raise a Defence, then there are extracts of the Waksman judgement which state that an original is needed for re-enforcement.

 

[stevo7790]

Update on this,

 

Need some input from you guys

 

Ok, I never sent off an in dispute letter to freds as I have been away with work, I still intend to do this though.

 

However my mother rings me, I haven't lived at home in over 5 years telling me she has been getting calls from regal credit, I told her to tell them i dont live there, which is true as my credit file is also updated so no excuses really but... today I learn they have sent a letter regarding the above matter with RBS/Kwik Fit... now Freds and Bryan Carter are dealing with this or so I thought.

 

So I have 2 creditors chasing the same debt, what is the best thing to do in this instance? I know regal credit are sending letters to my parents address but obviously I dont want them trying for the different address trick, the fact that wescot, freds and carter all know I live kinda points to them not having a clue, any one got any pointers?

 

Thanks

 

Steve