What if the Judge asks..................... ....

[jimdev1976]

Some interesting answers however I feel that it’s irrelevant whether you owe the money or not. The burden of proof is on the DCA to prove that you do owe the debt, and without a valid CCA they can’t do that. So my response would be along the lines of, ‘with all due respect sir/madam, it is down to the claimant to prove that I owe the money and until they can produce a valid CCA as laid down in the CCA 1974 then no, I don’t owe them a penny’.

With regards to why judges don’t follow the legislation or judgments in higher courts, it’s because a lot of judges simply don’t know the law and are using the moral issue to cover for their lack of knowledge.

[noomill060]

kraken- why would an answer based on equity ie: no CCA, money borrowed paid back (with statements as proof), alleged debt made up of interest and charges) get a judges back up?

[Kraken1]

I just think it is unlikely to work, a judge will assume that there will have been an interest element to a commercial transaction. If phrased more along the lines of twofoot's argument, it might work - I did owe some money but understand that I have paid it all back as agreed - this might work.

 

this:

‘with all due respect sir/madam, it is down to the claimant to prove that I owe the money and until they can produce a valid CCA as laid down in the CCA 1974 then no, I don’t owe them a penny’.

 

would a) solicit the question - did you borrow the money and b) will upset the judge.

 

If you say you don't owe because there was not a debt then you will be inviting the creditor to prove that there was a debt (through payments for eg) and then you are stuffed. Mr Judge will take a dim view of you and rule accordingly.

 

You can't lecture a judge. You can only guide them by asking them the right questions and hope that this will lead you where you need to go. This is why I prefer twofoot's approach - it means that you get the judge to demand the right bits from the claimant, you are not demanding the judge demand them, if this makes sense.

 

Put yourself on the bench - what would you want to hear?

[jimdev1976]

Fair enough Kraken, i can see the point you are making and how it may well annoy the judge.

[noomill060]

Good points- thanks.

[caro]

DO YOU OWE THE MONEY!!!!

 

 

 

Running with the idea that similar questions may be asked, suppose the judge asks:-

 

Did you borrow the money?

[diamondgirl]

In the event of no CCA, one could say that in equity all capital borrowed has been repaid.

 

With no CCA, there is no proof that you ever agreed to pay interest, which is what the alleged debt consists of.

 

Get your statements, add up all you borrowed, add up all youve paid. If youve repaid more than you've borrowed, then all that is left is interest and charges.

 

If they have no agreement, then they have no proof that you ever agreed to pay interest.

 

This is one that I'd never have thought of - when and if I get my statements I'll have to check it out - never know it may work for me soon.

DG

[westendwendy]

Difficult to answer but I would go something like this:

 

At the moment I am unaware of any debt to the claimant,this is why I have requested that they provide a copy of the relevant CCA but despite my requests,this has not been forthcoming.

If I could be provided with a CCA I would be in a position to answer your question.

 

Hopefully this would push the Judge in the right direction.

[Having_A_Knightmare]

In the event of no CCA, one could say that in equity all capital borrowed has been repaid.

 

With no CCA, there is no proof that you ever agreed to pay interest, which is what the alleged debt consists of.

Get your statements, add up all you borrowed, add up all youve paid. If youve repaid more than you've borrowed, then all that is left is interest and charges.

 

If they have no agreement, then they have no proof that you ever agreed to pay interest.

I checked one of my statments and I had paid over £1K in interest. There is more owing but wouldnt it be good if we could claim the interest back!!

[lilly white]

it is my view that i am not here to judge but to defend the rights of the consumer to ensure that the law is up help long gone are the days the we trust the Banks and other institutions who in their own omissions mistake where made i could go on however you get the drift

 

Viva cag

 

Lilly

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Running with the idea that similar questions may be asked, suppose the judge asks:-

 

Did you borrow the money?

 

Another good question???????

[fedupwithdebt2009]

Subbing....

 

If the Judge asks me that when we go to court do I owe the money my answer will most definately be No I do not and I am here top put the claiment to strick proof that I do. Surely its up to the DCA sol's to have proof that we owe any money before they even make a claim.

[the_shadow]

Subbing....

 

If the Judge asks me that when we go to court do I owe the money my answer will most definately be No I do not and I am here top put the claiment to strick proof that I do. Surely its up to the DCA sol's to have proof that we owe any money before they even make a claim.

 

But for strict proof I'm sure he'll have a copy of all your statements and say he just picks a couple of items and says "Did you receive this?" "Did this get delivered to your house?" "Did you stay at that hotel on that date?"

 

If you say Yes, then you've fallen into the trap, if no then he'll prob remind you these facts can be checked out and you will be held in contempt of court.

 

The point is to admit without admitting as I see it:D or admit it whilst throwing the hand grenade towards the other side to deal with.

[fedupwithdebt2009]

Well In my case they have issued a claim for an over draft of over £4K and its from 1997.( its not it was a bank loan but they have no docc's at all for said loan so have gone down route of claiming its an overdraft) Lucky for me I have every bank statement from said account and can actually PROVE that at no time were we overdrawn by that amount......So in answer to the question do you owe this £4K overdraft plus £3.5K interest from 1997 my answer will still be no, absolutely not...prove that I do

[Decanus]

excellent thread, I'll be subscribing, haven't read through it all yet.

 

However, most of the replies are exactly right. The court has no moral viewpoint on cases, just how they stand under law.

 

So, money can only be owed to the creditor in the first instance on production of a valid credit agreement; no valid agreement, then there is legally nothing beyond that point, regardless if you spent money on a card or not.

 

So, you don't deny owing money, you just emphasize the lack of, or incorrect, credit agreement, and the fact that you can only make a judgement on what you owe by them supplying you with agreement, default notice, and all statements and correspondance; without these you cannot establish if what they say you owe, is indeed what you owe..

 

consumer law exists so that the creditor has to adhere to certain guidelines and if they choose not to, more fool them!

[MrMT]

Did you borrow the money?

 

Again, that's what we're here to determine, Sir. Either it was a loan, or it was a gift.

[millymollymoo]

Well I would be looking to send the judge to sleep by incessant talking:D

 

 

Did you use the credit card? - Yes your honour as a gift it seems ,as I was not made aware in the agreement I signed that I had to repay the money as my agreement did not set out any prescribed terms as to asking for repayment.or if any interest was expected. I only gave permission to Data protection. I did however make substantial payments to the account . I understand that I did not have to do this but acted responsible. The problem is that the creditor decided to charge me late payment fees, over limit fees which are penalties at law, they also decided to charge me extortionately high interst out of greed and to inflate the balance considerably. When I questioned this they were always happy to state that this is what I agreed to when I signed my agreement. Because of this, I asked for my agreement via a s.78 request and I was sent a misleading unsigned agreement . As I doubted the authenticity of this I then did a S.A.R and my agreement which was signed was supplied and was completely different than what they had originally sent in my s.78 request. There fore the creditor had not been truthful in an attempt to enrich themselves unjustly by saying that I had agreed to all these terms when the account was opened. The agreement due to its age is precluded from the current CCA 2006 rules as it was taken out before S127(3) was repealed and therefore this claim should not be here in court at all as it is ireedemingly unenforceable by a court and the creditor knows this but believes it is above the law.

 

 

OK maybe a bit OTT, but in all truth if he asks that question you're stuffed really aren't you.

 

Milly X

Edited April 4, 2009 by millymollymoo

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Now this is all very interesting but, as I have not yet been to court, I wonder if the other side has the opportunity to question you.

 

If so then it would appear that all the other side have to do is ask the same question.

 

GKTP

[lilly white]

EXCELLENT THREAD.

 

There is a saying i am not to sure where i heard it however it is not my own

 

i quote keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

 

SIR/MADAM What a good question i really do not know any more i did know

some where a long the line it became, what shall we say, legal i am now convince i did not

 

HAPPY SUNDAY

[reggie76]

subbing

Great thread!

[Viscount Stair]

OK maybe a bit OTT, but in all truth if he asks that question you're stuffed really aren't you.

 

Milly X

 

I think that is probably right. If the judge even thinks the question is relevant, then he either does not understand or care about the legal principles involved and you are probably fighting uphill at the very least.

[spamheed]

I think any answer which invites the judge to examine existing precedents and current statutes would be correct.

 

"Do you owe these monies?"

 

"Well, I don't think I do and according to the relevant CCA regs, I most certainly dont"

 

"Did you use this card to pay for your grandiose lifestyle"

 

"I think I might have, but cant be certain and according to CCA regs, the card would have been by way of a gift"

 

I'm a little confused, the CCA regs state one thing, whilst this company I've never heard of state the opposite, I want to know who is right, a debt collection agency or the laws of this country.

[lilly white]

OK maybe a bit OTT, but in all truth if he asks that question you're stuffed really aren't you.

 

Milly x

 

It is like who wants to be a millonaire not a trial.

 

SIR OR MADAM

 

Can i phone a friend

[Abby25]

Could you say ... (in the absence of a copy agreement)

 

"Your Honour, the Creditor is trying to impose terms to which I don't recall and I don't believe I would have agreed to ... accordingly I have requested sight of my signed agreement to validate this.

 

The examination of such will establish if I did indeed formally agree by signature, to all terms the creditor is trying to impose."

 

Having said that, I don't understand how it would get to court, because there is no contract in evidence, how can statements be used to prove a contract, and your acceptance of its terms??

 

Also a bit stuck on what to say if you have a copy CCA, but it doesn't have the prescribed terms in it. If as discussed in this thread, the Judge won't apply/ignores the terms of the CCA, or previous precedent cases, which clearly state the requirement of them to be within the signed document.

[count orlok]

Been thinking about this one, and the answer in the case of a DCA would have to be no. you never agreed to their conditions, no body in their right mind would borrow from people like this. if you borrow from a loan shark the loan cannot be upheald in court, these people are no better then loan sharks, in fact some could say they are worse, both take advantage of those in vulnarable positions.