After the worst year of my life and after being honest with the benefits system it would seem that I am in the worst mess of my life. I simply don't know what to do.

I had severe PTSD from being abused and struggled on with my life as best I could until i got treatment about 4 years ago - it made things better but I still struggled with some symptoms and worked part time whilst claiming some housing benefit.

As I was constantly close to my overdraft limit my mum who is now 81 loaned me some money most months just to keep me from losing everything. She doesn't know about the PTSD or my treatment as she would be unable to cope with it. We agreed that I would pay her back when I could.

As I became slowly stronger - largely due to my own efforts and self help my life began to improve. I got into a relationship 2 years ago which is the best thing in my life. I began to feel stronger and have been planning to start my own business in the area I trained in and it began to feel as though my life was going to be what I had always imagined.

However I became ill with a rare medical condition which could not be operated on in the UK and which took over all our lives. This last year has just been unimaginebley stressful. I had the operation last July in the US which my mother paid for and my wonderful partner came with me and never left my side.

Rather than claim sickness benefits my Mother loaned me some money - again just to keep me away from overdraft limit - I rarely went into the black and when I did it was by a few pounds and was soon eaten away with rent and bills etc.

My partner also loaned me some money when i couldn't face telling my mother that things were so bad.

As i was recovering from the operation we got the devastating news that my partners brother in Australia had cancer and my partner decided that she had to see him. We were planning a trip to Australia in a years time when I had got out of the benefits system and had set my business up and when I had started to repay the loan to my mother.

My partner had no money to pay for the airfares so she had to call in her loan to me and so i paid for the tickets on my credit card - therefore exchanging one loan for another.

When we got back - my partners new boss started bullying her (and 5 other people) at work and I watched my partner change from an energetic passionate person into someone who came home and cried.

I helped her put together a formal complaint and then an appeal but the organization decided that they didn't believe her.

Then unexpectedly she was given notice of redundancy at the end of February when the funding for her post was cut - she was made redudant in March this year.

having stood by one another through such trying times we had decided to move in together on 1 Feb this year.

I notified the benefit agency of my change of circumstance.

I had had to leave my job in January as it involved going onto some dangerous estates and after being attacked my nerves just wouldn't stand it. So I decided that the time was definitely right to start my own business and that it was not only the right thing for me but also to get out of the benefits system and start to get out of all the debt.

I told the guy at the benefits system all of this and was completely open and honest believing that to be the best and only way to go.

He then started to question why I had not claimed more benefits when i had no income so I told him that my Mother had loaned me some money.

Since then our lives have become a nightmare.

He asked for the last years bank statements - so we spent almost 2 weeks gathering together all my bank statements and credit card statements and colour coded everything so that they could understand everything. It was complicated because my mothers bank could not issue the cheques for the operation in dollars so the money was paid into my account as my bank said that they could do it - the money can clearly be seen going straight out again.

The benefits guy asked me to provide letters from my Mother and my partner stating that they had loaned me money and that it was expected to be paid back.

I provided all of this and met with him last week for over an hour to go over everything. My Mother was distraught as she couldn't understand how a loan could get me into any trouble and neither could we.

They guy I spoke with seemed happy at the time with everything and said that the money from the operation could be discounted as it was a straightforward payment to a hospital and a doctor.

He said that the loan was also okay as it was a 'loan' and still didn't exceed the limit for what I could receive as 'income' anyway. He said that he just had to check this with a senior colleague and that he would email me.

I now have an email from him saying that his colleague has checked the law and says that the loan is 'income' and that i will have to pay my benefits back.

He has also asked if the date of the loan goes back further than the last year andto give him the date it started.

I am in pieces - I have no idea what to do. How can a loan be seen as income? I can't afford to pay my benefits back and will sink into bankruptcy. I have come so far and just can't face slipping back.

I don't have any bank records that go back any further - but know that my Mother did loan me money going further back. It was just to keep me from sinking completely and was just a loan.

I don't know what to do and have started having quite severe panic attacks - I can't eat or sleep and can't face telling my mother that what she did to help me has now got me into serious trouble.

I have no money, have never had any money and still have no money, just debt.

Does anyone know what I can do?

Hi ai

Welcome to CAG

The guys will advise as soon as they are available.

Sorry to see what you are going through, however I would suggest that you need to get some legal, as well as benefit advice. My feeling is that you need to speak to the Citizen's Advice Bureau, who have advisor's that can give you the help you need to get through this. They will also be able to get direct contact with supervisors and managers at the various agencies, and hopefully unravel some of this for you. They can be contacted on 08444 111 444, or look for your local office - if you cannot find the number your local library will have it.

Let us know what they say, and I am sure that some of our members with benefit experience will post on specific issues you have raised. It is most important though that you speak to the CAB, as they can work with you to plan a way through this nightmare.

Just a thought. From my experience family loans would not normally be classed as income, but I think I can see why they may have made the decision.

Firstly, if the loan was substantial, and there was no immediate provable agreement to refund, this may cause questions to be asked. This will be especially so when the amounts start to get near the £6 savings limit.

Another thing that worries me is that you say your mother loaned you money "most months". This may be being questioned as a "regular income", and not a "loan", which would be more likely to be a one-off, or occasional thing.

Unfortunately people will often make decisions on an individual's circumstances without fully investigating - mainly due to lack of time and resources, and sometimes on nothing more than a feeling that something is not right. This sort of decision making is often the cause of much misery and hardship, and can be very difficult to overturn without some input from a professional advice worker with access to the right people.

Hi ai

I think CAB will also be able to help with any appeals. Also it might be worth getting your doctor to write a report for you that could help.

Here are some links :- http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/benefits/problems_with_benefits_and_tax_credits.htm

What benefit is it? You've mentioned housing benefit, are there others?

Just Housing benefit which includes council tax benefit. Too scared to claim anything else - although now it seems I may have to try for sickness benefit as the depression and panic attacks are getting so bad due to the stress of my claim that I will have no choice but to see my GP. Everyone worried about me. I can't believe I was just getting it together and feeling better and now everything is just escalating to the point where I just can't cope.

For housing benefit, they may well treat what your mother has loaned to you as your income. From the housing benefit guidance:

W2.920 Before deciding whether any loan or overdraft should be treated as income, it will be necessary

to have regard to the particular circumstances of the individual case.

 

W2.921 Money which has been obtained by way of a one-off lump sum for example, would normally

fall to be treated as capital, see BW1 or BP1 Assessment of capital. This would particularly apply

if a payment is for the purchase of a specific item or items such as a car or a holiday.

 

W2.922 There may, however be occasions when money obtained by way of a loan or overdraft may

amount to other income. An example would be money received in the form of a series of loans

which are made periodically to help defray a person’s living costs, although we would suggest

that an unused overdraft facility would not fall to be treated as either income or capital.

 

W2.923 As the way in which to treat a loan or overdraft depends so much on the individual circumstances,

authorities may wish, in some instances, to seek advice from its legal advisers.

As you will see however, it is a pretty shady area and subject to circumstance. There may be scope to sucessfully appeal against their decision - you will need to do this within one month from the date of the decision. You just need to write a brief letter stating that you do not agree with their decision that the loans should be constituted as income, outlining the reasons why, and that you are appealing against it. Make sure you include the word 'appeal' otherwise they will treat it as a review request and no more. Although they have to review it anyway before putting it forward for an appeal, if you do not specifically state you are appealing, any unsuccessful review would end there and you'd need to appeal again. If you wish, you can request a written statement of reasons before you appeal. They have to provide this within 14 days and it adds 14 days on to the appeal time limit. If you need assistance with the general wording of this request, I'm happy to help you.

However, given the complexity of the issues which this will give rise to, I don't feel that online advice is going to be sufficient to effectively argue your case. You need someone who can sit with you and go through everything with a fine toothed comb and whom can write a detailed submission on your behelf to HM Courts and Tribunals Service (this has now replaced the Appeals Tribunal Service). You will be able to get someone to help you to do this from CAB but funding is limited and as a result some CAB offices are no longer able to offer this service - though they should be able to refer you to somewhere that can help. If there is no referral scheme or you don't have a CAB, try asking your local council if they operate a 'Welfare advice', 'money advice' or similar department - they usually have Welfare Rights officers and though it is the council who deal with HB/CTB, their Welfare rights officers are not associated with them, they are there to assist you. You could also try a local advocacy service - or search community legal advice for a welfare organisation. Remember that most reputable Welfare Rights organisations are free services. If someone tries to charge you a fee, question it. An experienced welfare rep will gather information from you but will liaise with the council and tribunal service on your behalf, write submissions for you and may be able to accompany you to a tribunal and argue your case. You do not have to have a Welfare rights representative, you can appeal, write a submission and represent yourself if you wish to do so. You can also have a friend or family member represent you if you choose. However I cannot stress enough how useful a rep experienced in these matters can be. Statistically, a higher proportion of appeals have sucess with representation.

Finally, I will leave you with some links which you may want to read over when you have time.

Housing benefit guidance manual

Housing benefit regulations 2006

HB/CTB Decision and Appeal Regulations 2001

Tribunals judicary decisions database (this allows you to search for precedents set in earlier cases which you may be able to use in your own)

Erika - I can't begin to thank you enough for your post - I am so grateful. I agree that it sounds as though I should get some legal advice asap.

I do still have one question - the guy at the benefits office with whom I met has not yet made a final decision in that he is asking me for the date that the loans from my mother started so that he can 'adjust' my claim - I don't know what to do. I have given him all the records I had which is a years bank statements and I don't have any more. I daren't give him even an estimated date as firstly I don't know it and secondly I don't want to get into further trouble.

I just never ever thought that the loan would be perceived as anything other than a loan never mind be considered as income. I have searched all the advice given out by my local council and other councils re unearned income and there is no mention of anything like this.

The guy at the benefits office told me last Friday that he was happy with everything and that he saw it as a loan which would be disregarded - he said he was just going to double check this with his colleague. He also said that even if it was seen as capital it was still less than the amount allowed which he said was £7000. Now his email states that it is being seen as income and that he can't amend my claim until I tell him when it started. He says that he needs to know when my mother started to lend me money.

I just can't face this whole thing going back years and all of my PTSD stuff coming up. The bottom line is that I struggled on for a long time with horrendous symptoms and kept working at least part time because it helped me to cope but of course didn't allow me to get better either. I have a lot of qualifications and used studying as a means to cope and get some self esteem but of course in the end I had to deal with everything. i went undiagnosed for a long time as a result and finally got the diagnosis myself and much to my Gp's amazement got PCT funding for the therapy with one of the top experts in abuse who clearly stated my case as one of the worst she had ever seen.

My Mother does not know about this and is in denial about my childhood. I am sure that her loaning me the money is some for of acknowledgement of things and as such is very unhealthy both for me and for her but I realize this is not the issue legally but it is for me.

I have worked so hard to get myself to this point in my life and break all these patterns, but now feel threatened by all of this and terrified of what I will end up having to say in order to explain what is clearly a very untypical situation.

My partner is so supportive but also concerned about what is going to happen.

Things like this seriously unerve you. It's the reason I refuse to claim what I am actually entitled to anymore. The risk of them destroying mine & the kids lives is too high. I know I can claim housing benefit, but I have no idea how much, & dont want to know.

I adjusted my life to be able to do without them, but I feel so sorry for people that cant do that.

Fingers crossed it'll work out. I know they weren't interested in seeing my loan account statement, & they didn't even ask how much it was for. But mine was through a bank.

But that's proof enough that they dont all see loans as income.

Keep us posted.

What's the question, aitch?

Hi - the question is the second paragraph really i.e. how do I answer the question re the date that the loan started?

Many thanks again!

Oh! You can get historical statements from your bank. They will charge a fee for this, usually between £5 and £10. But before you do, you might want to ask your mum for the dates. As loans, she must have the amounts and dates written down somewhere to keep a record of what you owe. This would save you paying out a fee for bank statements.

Hi,

Have ordered the back dated bank statements. Haven't been able to face telling my mum the truth of what is going on as she is falling apart as it is. I know that she doesn't write down all the dates etc. - we always agreed that when I was well enough I would pay her back. She would have to also order bank statements.

Everything is just crashing in on me - terror doesn't describe it - all of the worst of the PTSD symptoms are coming back - having massive panic attacks, crying, going numb, shaking violently, and having flashbacks which I haven't had for the last few years, slept for 3 hours the last 2 nights.

If I had known that the money would be seen as income I would not have been able to cope as I can't survive with feelings of guilt as they make me ill.

Have booked an appt with my GP and with a solicitor that a friend recommended for Wednesday but have no idea how I will even be able to speak at the appts.

I just feel like I can't go on much longer

How far back are the bank statements you wanted? On line banking you can print out bank statements going back years for free. I printed some out going back to 2007. My 16 yr old son just signed up for online banking at the weekend, online, in minutes.

Hi,

You could issue a Subject Access Request to your bank.The fee for this is £10.00. The bank must within 40 days provide you with all the information they have about you including statements letters ect. There template letters on here that you can use. As I understand it the bank has to produce the information for the past 6 yrs.( may be longer) By using this information you may be able to get a date when the payments started .The letters your bank sent you may hold some information which may be of use.

Some banks try it on and ask for £ so much per statement by the issuing of a SAR you should receive 72 for £10 that is if you have been with the bank for 6yrs or more.

regards.

Have you telephoned Community Law?

You may be entitled to Legal Aid and Incapacity Benefit, they should be able to signpost you and find an advocate that specialises in Benefits. I know what you are going through, there is help out there, just make sure you get support from someone who specialises in Benefit and you will feel a lot better.

Good luck.

Found a solicitor recommended by a friend - went for the appt and found he wasn't available so saw his junior - the appt was very difficult as I had to talk about my abuse and ended up in floods of tears - however she was really nice at the time and said she was impressed as to how I had kept doing part time work and got my life together. We asked about payment and explained that we had no money - she said not to worry as she had asked her boss about that and he had said to sort out the legal aid form later but to just get things started -this made him seem like a really nice guy and we came home feeling the first sense of hope I have had in weeks.

However - he didn't contact us and when I wrote an email asking for contact I was told he was on holiday - I sent another email on his return saying that a conversation would be really helpful and he has basically become quite unpleasant and sent an email demanding several hundred pounds in payment and refusing to do anything else until it is paid. He said there is no legal aid until the IUC stage.

I replied explaining that we had been told that there would not be a charge but he is refusing to reply.

I feel so let down and so hurt that he could do this - I had to go through all the abuse which I had never wanted to speak of again and all the trauma that that caused and all for nothing.

Now we are back to square one - with no solicitor, no progress on my benefits case and a problem with the solicitor that I thought was going to help.

I have never in my life felt such desperation - waking up having panic attacks, thinking of suicide every hour of every day - i just can't go on any more.

It has taken me all my life to get really well and I was literally set to start my own business and be free from money worries and from the benefits system. Now because of something that I never dreamed was an issue - my mother loaning me money purely to prevent me from going over my overdraft limit and losing my flat - my life is over.

My partner has become ill and been diagnosed with clinical depression - she can't bear to have watched me try so hard in my life and now just want to die.

My mother knows something is seriously wrong and was in tears last time I saw her - she is 81 and I can't bear what this is doing to her.

I have been offered an appt at a legal advice centre in 2 weeks time but just don't feel as though I can bear another 2 weeks of this hell.

Oh dear, I'm really sorry to hear that.

The solicitor/assistant haven't behaved well, but you need to try and move on from that if you can, because you're worth more than that.

If you feel that low, I seriously recommend you ring the Samaritans. They won't judge you and they're used to people with desperate problems who need to talk.

I think the legal advice centre could be the way to go. With the right support, you can get through 2 weeks. Don't tell your mother the details of what you're going through. My mother is a similar age to yours and doesn't really 'get' psychological stuff if it's other people's. Talk to us and the Samaritans.

You can do this and come out of it OK.

HB x

The two weeks will pass and you should be proud of yourself for how far you have come.

While you wait for you appt, right a diary down of dates etc..amounts and next to it the reason. See if you could get any support from your doctor letter wise as to your condition etc...and the pressure you are under now having got past that and now having to deal with this as you did not know there was an issue re the monies.

You can always keep posting here for support in the meantime. It was not nice of your advisor to let you go through all that history to have to go through it again, so it might help you if you write it down as best you can.

Dealing with what you did leads us to feeling ups and downs more strongly mood wise I am now also learning, its like it switches on and we have no control over how we feel or react. But no more dark thoughts or if you get them write how you feel down, I find sometimes doing that helps me start to feel better again for a while.

This site is great and ask any questions, hopefully the two weeks will fly before you know it.

Also if you are starting to struggle mentally wise see your doctor and get refered to ASTI they can get you help sooner I havnt long to wait myself now xx

Hi Aitch, I'm sorry you had a problem with the solicitor, I've had a similar experience to you but I have found solictors who specialized and who would also operate under the Legal Aid umbrella - found them through Community Legal Advice and had an appointment within days.

Waiting 2 weeks doesn't help when you are distressed but from what you have written it seems that your argument is one of overpayment, and at least not fraud? Which is a situation that can materialize through non disclosure (even if innocent) and can happen through illness when affairs often become disorganised. How have you got on with solictors bill? Did you sign anything or did they tell you there would be a fee?

On a final note,have you visited your GP? Don't be afraid to ask for help