UKPC/BW windscreen PCN PAPLOC now claimform - appeal+IPC both refused - 325 Greenford Rd, Greenford **Claim Discontinued**

[BUNNY36]

Hi there, 

I'd really appreciate some advice about my case:

A Notice to Keeper was received from UK Parking Patrol office LTD dated chasing me for an unpaid parking charge of £100. 

The driver had received a ticket to windscreen a few weeks earlier but ignored it.

It was parked on a forecourt in front of a row of shops. They went into one shop for 15 mins and came back to a parking charge notice on the windscreen. Apparently the forecourt only belongs to one of the shops on the forecourt solely.

The driver went into the land owner's shop on the day and explained the situation. They said "oh if you had come in and let us know you were a customer of next door we would have stop the ticket from being issued."

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and £100 seemed really unjustified for an honest mistake.

I've attached the sign below  - it mentions a permit but this is not accurate, any customer of the landowner shop can park while shopping but it wasn't clear who that was. 

I noted that the ticket placed on the windscreen was issued at "2:45pm" however the notice to keeper stated that the contravention took place at 02:45. Bit of a technicality but this implies 2am not 2pm,

I decided to appeal saying that the alleged contravention did not take place as my car was parked on my drive overnight between 2-3am. As I responded outside of the 21 day appeal period they just ignored my appeal. 

When Debt recovery Plus (DRP) started to hound me, I explained to them that I was appealing the case. They put my case on hold for a couple of weeks but then started to hound me again after they checked the date of my appeal and said I had no right to appeal and demanded payment immediately.

I have ignored their letters which appear to be deliberately scaremongering. Last conversation I had with them I said that I didn't feel the PCN was justified and if they recommended court action then so be it.

I was certain that UKPC owed me a response to the representations made as the IPC code of conduct of states:
 

- members internal procedures should allow for appeals to be made outside of the initial time period in exceptional circumstances.

 

- Recipients of a parking charge should be allowed to make representations regarding the issue of that parking charge

 

-These representations should be appropriately responded to within 28 days.

I appealed to the IPC who rejected the complaint saying that I the keeper was only notified of the charge after the appeal period and I suspected the alleged contravention did not take place, my appeal should be considered. The IPC responded saying that:

1) UKPC have shown them photographs of the ticket being placed on the windscreen (I have not seen these, nor do they comment on the time they were taken)

2) My appeal went into UKPC's junk folder and they have an automated message saying the appeals inbox is not manned (this is untrue; at the time I sent the appeal to [email protected] - no message was returned to me but they have recently added this automated message.

My questions are:

1) What should my next course of action be?  Wait and see if UKPC issues a CCJ?  (I don't want bad credit but I guess I would pay if it come  to this -  to avoid it on my credit file)

2) Should I follow up with the IPC or UKPC directly and ask for the photographic evidence?  (photos certainly would have been taken at 14:45 and not 02:45 as stated on the NTK)

 

3) Give up and just set up a payment plan with DRP? 

 

4) Anyone been in a similar position

- does UKPC give up eventually?

What are my chances in court? (really don't want a CCJ on file for 6 years)

Thank you in advance for your advice and guidance!
 

parking sign .pdf

[Nicky Boy]

Hi Bunny,

 

Could you please follow the instructions in this sticky please?

It'll help the guys to advise you further...

 

[BUNNY36]

Thanks @Nicky Boy

 

• 
   

 

For a windscreen ticket (Notice To Driver) 

 

1 The date of infringement? 7th July 22
 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? Y (however outside of 21 day appeal period after NTK received - no response)

 

Has there been a response? No

 

Have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days] Y
 

What date is on it? 10th of August 22 

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? No (see post above, IPC complaint response mentions they have photos of ticket on windscreen but I have not seen these)

 

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?] N
 

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances] Y on NTK it says appeals can be considered outside of the initial 21 day period in exceptional circumstances, no further details given.
 

5 Who is the parking company? Parking Patrol LTD UK
 

6. Where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Private car park 325 Greenford Rd, Greenford

 

Parking Appeal 12:8:22.pdf IPC complaint response.pdf

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

I suggest you stop appealing as it's unlikely to help you, given the type of people you're dealing with. Please wait for the regulars to comment on the best way forward from here.

 

HB

[BUNNY36]

That sounds wise, thanks @honeybee13

 

[dx100uk]

bothsides of the NTK please and the windscreen tickets too

one mass PDF is OK

 

[FTMDave]

Well you've done just about everything wrong so far, but hey that's just normal if you've never been in that situation before.

 

But don't worry, nothing fatal, we can help you bat this away.

 

Work calls now but I promise to reply properly late this evening. 

 

Regarding a CCJ.  CCJs are used to punish people who defy court judgements.  The only way you could get a CCJ is if the parking company sent you a formal Letter of Claim, then started a court case, then won the court case, and you defied the court and refused to pay.  Then you would get a CCJ.  Even on the very, very, very, very, very few occasions Caggers lose in court, as long as payment is made within 30 days of being ordered by the court there is no CCJ.  

 

More later but in the meantime as dx says can you please upload the fleecers' invoice, this is vital info we need to see.

 

 

[BUNNY36]

Oh, glad to hear it not fatal! 

Thank you for the advice regarding CCJ's @FTMDave really helpful!

 

I've attached the tickets as advised by yourself and @dx100uk. Unfortunately file is too big to upload as a pdf document.

 

Here are links to the documents:

 

1. Windscreen ticket

2. Notice to Keeper
Greatly appreciate your time and advice

[brassnecked]

The time they quote on that NTK are confusing  for sure 03:45 and at 17:19

Shame you outed youself as driver but its not fatal.

[BUNNY36]

Hi @brassnecked

Thanks for taking a look. 1719 is the parking location number. 

They definitely have my details as the keeper via the DVLA. Unfortunately I added insult to injury by confirming my email address etc. However, I have maintained the position that I am the registered owner of the vehicle and was only made aware of the contravention when the NTK arrived. I chosen not to name the driver of the vehicle as they are a relative and I don't want them to be hounded either.

 

[Nicky Boy]

Something you really need to do now is tell them you will no longer receive communications via email... only post.

Leave them in no doubt that they are not to send you any further emails. 

Do it by email and confirm by 2nd Class letter. 

Get free proof of postage from the post office and file it away.

 

Also educate yourself by reading other threads, so you get a good idea about the vampires and what to expect from them.

[brassnecked]

Agree with Nicky Boy you must inform them you cannot take any info off them by email post only, send it in a letter with free proof of posting, also we do not recommend linking to documents on an external site, as can be accessed by anyone whereas an uploaded pdf can only be read by Registered logged in Cagger's I would have edited the pdf's to reduce the size for you  but they are read only.

[FTMDave]

For future reference, the private parking companies never, ever, ever accept appeals - ever.

 

Do you know the history of the iAS?  Once upon a time there was only one parking association, the British Parking Association, which had an appeals body that sometimes accepted motorists' appeals, to the chagrin of the worst of the companies.  Spotting a hole in the market, a pair of solicitors who handled parking court cases set up a rival trade association the IPC and its appeals body, the IAS.  Yes, the trade association, the body motorists appeal to and the firm of solicitors who cash in are all run by the same people.  No conflict of interest there!  That's who you're dealing with.  If you had complete proof that you were in prison in Australia at the time of the "offence" and the car was scrapped 25 years ago, the IAS would still find a way to reject your appeal. 

 

That's why we always say never to appeal.  It gets you nowhere and most people who appeal out themselves as the driver.

 

Debt Recovery Plus are an uninterested third party with no power to do anything save write silly letters.

 

The fleecers have sent out their paperwork in accordance with the timescales of POFA 2012 to establish keeper liability.  So far so bad but ...

 

I've searched for threads on this company on CAG and we have no record of them ever having the gonads to take a motorist to court.

 

The windscreen ticket is nonsense.  "Illegally parked".  That means you were committing a crime.  What exactly?  Were you selling packets of cocaine from your boot?  Were you parked on top of the pedestrian you had deliberately run over?  it's a nonsense.

 

The signage is unclear as you say.

 

You didn't out yourself as the driver!  Well done.

 

You were denied the right of appeal in breach of the industry code of practice.

 

Ignore the fleecers now, but be sure to come back here if they ever do send you a Letter Before Action/Letter Before Claim.

Edited November 8, 2022 by FTMDave
Self-censoring

[FTMDave]

7 hours ago, BUNNY36 said:

The driver went into the land owner's shop on the day and explained the situation. They said "oh if you had come in and let us know you were a customer of next door we would have stop the ticket from being issued."

The landowner is the organ grinder.  UK Parking Control Office are the monkey.  At any time the landowner can call their dogs off.  The driver should go back, remind the landowner of the conversation and demand they get the ticket cancelled.

[BUNNY36]

@FTMDave Incredibly helpful thank you very much for taking the time give such a detailed response!

I've learned a lot from this, as you've all said I've made a few mistakes as a newbie that I hope to never make again.

@Nicky Boy and @brassnecked can I understand a bit more about the reason for writing to them about not accepting further emails? They have never emailed me directly. However, I did send my appeal to their appeals inbox (which they never acknowledged) from my email address. I'm not keen to make any further contact with them unless absolutely needed. 

Thank again all, really helped to make things much clearer.

[brassnecked]

the reason you never use email is if the numpties tried court, their solicitor's might send legal documents at  12:59:59 hours  the day before a court hearing and there is then no time to respond.

[lookinforinfo]

I am having a problem opening your PCNs. I have gmail and google drive but google is not allowing me to open them. Can you please help. Those tickets if they are not compliant then you as keeper are not responsible for the alleged debt. So if you were not the driver you would be totally off the hook and there would be no need to out the driver either.

 

Just to confirm something you said in an earlier post.  That the car park requires a Permit yet only one shop  has all the parking spaces?

Could you also please get legible photos of the signs at the car park including  the one at the entrance if there is one.

[Nicky Boy]

Another reason for no emails is that it removes an easy method for them to harass you. Make things as awkward as possible, be a pain in the neck, show that you're not going to be an easy target.

[dx100uk]

no the main reason is :

IF IF IF this ever gets to court, they WILL exploit you and file important documents 1 min before any court deadline removing your opportunity to tear them apart .

 

send ONE further Email in reply to their, stating this email is not to be used for anything moving forward concerning our mutual exchanges. all further comms MUST be sent in WRITING ONLY by Royal Mail.

 

dx

[dx100uk]

42 minutes ago, lookinforinfo said:

I am having a problem opening your PCNs.

the OP has correctly disabled the public link to the google drive files.

 

 

 

 

[BUNNY36]

@lookinforinforeally sorry about that  - I disabled the links as I was advised probably not best to have them on here. I've attached the pdf's below. 

 

@dx100uk and @Nicky Boy that makes sense, thank you. I'll take your advice and write and letter proof with of postage. 

 

and thank you @brassnecked too!

 

@lookinforinfoI've also given access to the drive as the resolution of the small file size is not great!

 

@lookinforinfo I can go back and get a clearer picture of the sign if needed. I've made the one I have a bit bigger and also uploaded a picture of the forecourt. There are 3 shops along there, a deli, the plumbing shop (landowner) and car show room. The driver was visiting the car showroom and parked in the empty space you can see in the picture.

 

 

merged pdfs (1).pdf

[FTMDave]

Thanks for the PDF.  The Google Maps image makes things even clearer.  The area looks like one continuous car park to any visitor. 

 

What you have going for you.

 

1.  UK Parking Patrol Office seem to be a small company that don't do court much (of course they might start!)

 

2.  You weren't the driver.

 

3.  The PCN is pants with its "Illegally parked".

 

4.  The signs are pants.  No sign when entering the car park as there's nowhere to put one.  Two small signs away from the door that could be easily missed (and were).  Even if they were seen they witter on about a permit which doesn't exist.

 

5.  The government Code of Practice states that when car parks are adjacent the boundary must be clearly shown.

 

6.  Mitigation.  A party is supposed to avoid legal action if necessary.  The only way the PPC's bod can have known the driver wasn't a customer of the bath & shower showroom is if they saw the driver going into the car showroom.  They could easily have asked the driver to move and freed a space up for the landowner's customers but did none of that.

 

7.  You're right, 03:45 is three o'clock in the morning, 15:45 is three in the afternoon.

 

8.  You were denied the right to appeal due to the incompetence of the company in not checking its e-mails properly.

Greenford Road.pdf

Edited November 8, 2022 by FTMDave
Typo

[FTMDave]

So ignore any deforestation the fleecers do now, but never ignore a Letter Before Claim.

 

Re post 14: is there any reason the driver won't do this?  There could be an easy way to instantly bat this off.

[Nicky Boy]

Just out of interest, the address on their paperwork "325 Greenford Road" doesn't seem to actually exist?

 

Even the OP's own photograph shows this.

323 > GAP > 327

 

And Google can't seem to find it...

 

So, the "No Unauthorised Parking" sign looks like an entry sign, for what appears to be a car park at the rear, through the "gap".

[brassnecked]

That sign does look dodgy shame e can't read it, 325 might be premises set back down the alley