Alliance Parking ANPR PCN, Appealed, With Response - overstay - Seaview Car Park, PL27 6SR

[Ted_3022]

1 Date of the infringement 25/06/2023

 2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 29/06/2023
 [scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide] please LEAVE IN LOCATION AND ALL DATES/TIMES/£'s

 3 Date received Unsure, abroad between 6 to 17th July 2023 (can prove)

 4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] N
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes, photos on entry and exit (see PCN)
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Y (stupidly!)
 Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Y - attached
 

7 Who is the parking company? Alliance Parking

8. Where exactly Seaview Car Park, Polzeath, PL27 6SR
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

IAS

_________________________________________________________________________

Hello everyone,

Received a PCN after overstaying in a car park by 19 minutes and 21 seconds, according to their CCTV cameras. i paid for 2 hours (£3), but left late.

I was abroad when the PCN arrived, so I was already too late to pay the £60 charge when I got back if I had wanted to. I appealed on their website form (which I now know is a stupid thing to do..), so don't have a copy, however the basic premise was:

- I was abroad until the 17th July so didn't receive the letter until after the two week period.

- Charging £60, £100 or £170 for overstaying by that amount was ridiculous, particularly when you can see lots of empty spaces on their photo of the vehicle leaving, and that it is out of season when it happened.

I have attached their reply to me which I received via email. Looking for advice as this company is clearly taking advantage of locals and tourists in a very greedy, aggressive way. It angers me when I read the reviews they're getting and that lots of people are paying extortionate fines for minimal overstays, nearly all as accidents!

In my very limited knowledge in all of this, but having read a few other responses in the forums, I can see some issues with the following:

- Their cameras caught the vehicle arriving at 14:05:39 and leaving at 16:24:51 and this is the time period they have used to issue the fine. In their appeal response, they attached a screenshot of the payment period at the bottom, which started at 14:07:45. Are they able to use the exact moment I entered the car park rather than the actual period of parking? There clearly isn't even a grace period to park the car and walk to the ticket machine. They even say very clearly in the FAQs on the back of the appeal response "there is no period of free parking", which apparently means you need to pay before you even enter the car park or have read their signage. 

- In all of this, it would have been impossible for me to pay the £60 fine as I was abroad when the PCN arrived. I appealed/emailed them the day I returned to the country. They instantly put the fine up to £100 after I appealed and stated I was away. Should they not have, at the very minimum, allowed me to pay the £60 after my appeal?

I have absolutely no intention of paying any of the extortionate fines regardless, which would (using the 17 mins and 6 seconds I was overdue after my pay period ended) cost me £3.51, £5.85 or £9.94 per minute (depending on the fine amount) in a half empty, out of season car park, which has no grace period and was used in good faith that I would have been back within the 2 hours I paid for!

Any help would be hugely appreciated. For info, here are some links to some other recent Alliance cases I have found:

Alliance Parking NTK PCN ANPR - Padstow Main Road Car Park, PL28 8EX - August 2023

Alliance ANPR PCN - overstay 11mins - appeal refused - Harlyn bay, Padstow Cornwall - June 2023

Alliance Parking MNPR CCTV PCN - Appealed - Now PAPLOC - Sea View Car Park, Polzeath - February 2023 

Thanks again!

 

PCN Letter.pdf Alliance Response to Appeal.pdf

[honeybee13]

Hello, welcome to CAG.

People should be along to advise you later, please bear with us until they're able to get here.

On your question of them using entry and leaving times, you're right, it's the period of parking that counts. There's usually a grace period of around 10 minutes to allow you to find a space and to leave afterwards if the car park is busy.

I expect someone will know how to tackle this and your other points.

Do you live in the area if we need photos of the signage?

Best, HB

[Ted_3022]

Hi HB,

Thanks! Yes, I would be able to get photos of the signage if needed.

[brassnecked]

You outed yourself as the driver then with the appeal? one thing is they definitely can't rely on entry and exit ca,era times a that isn't the period of parking time must be allowed to find a space park , and after leave the space to exit the car park.

[dx100uk]

and its NOT A FINE!

need your appeal  please.

 

dx

 

[FTMDave]

You say you don't have a copy of the appeal, and that that was a mistake (indeed, but not a fatal one).

However, can you remember if you outed yourself as the driver?

[lookinforinfo]

There are a number of things wrong with the PCN that make it non compliant with the protection of Freedoms Act 2012-the Act that governs the private parking rogues.

When they get it right the keeper becomes liable for the debt after 28 days if the driver hasn't  paid. As Alliance haven't got your PCN compliant it means that you as keeper cannot be pursued for the debt-only the driver is now liable.

The danger with appealing is that if you were the driver you admit in error often that you were the driver by saying something like "when I parked the car...." rather than "when the driver parked the car..." Courts do not allow the rogues to insist that the driver and the keeper are the same person they need more positive evidence to satisfy a Judge. A poorly worded appeal would be enough. If the driver is not revealed then it becomes very difficult to prove who was driving since anyone with a valid motor insurance policy is able to drive your car.

So what is wrong with your PCN? 

First they have not mentioned the parking period which the Act demands that they specify. Schedule 4 Section 9 [2][a]

2)The notice must—

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

Obviously driving from the entrance to a parking spot and later leaving the parking place and driving to the exit cannot be described as parking. On top of that you are allowed 5 minutes consideration period  to look at the T&Cs to decide whether you want to observe the Rules and stay or leave. At the end of the parking time you have a further ten minutes grace period to get out of the car park.  As that is 15 minutes it would not be hard to imagine that the further 2 minutes could have been taken up by driving around the car park as well as paying the ticket, loading the car especially if there were children or disabled people involved as well as traffic blocking the exit.

Then in Schedule 4 Section 9 [2] [e] it states "

(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—

(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or

(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;

Your PCN misses out virtually all of that which once again is a massive fail for them as far as being able to hold the keeper responsible.

They continue to mess up by stating that you are liable for a further £70 pound when the Act is quite clear that only the amount on the signage can be claimed.

The signage often can be enough to get the PCN cancelled so worthwhile checking out the signs. The important sign is the one at the entrance. After that the one by the payment machine is also important and if there are signs that state different terms on them can all help your case. Please ensure that the photos are legible.

The fact that the car park was half empty is not an argument that you can use . It would be helpful to see if Alliance would know who was driving from your appeal though we can always take the position that no offence occurred because of the 15 minute free periods.

[FTMDave]

On the plus side, they have massively shot themselves in the foot in their reply by writing "The contract also details that the tariff applies from the time of entry until the time of exit, therefore, naturally, includes any time spent finding a space".  There is case law that that is not so.  Even their horrible biased trade association allows a consideration period at the start and a grace period at the end.  They are demanding to be paid for periods when you weren't even parked!

On the minus side, you may have thrown away your POFA 2012 protection by outing yourself as the driver.  You have been asked about this by Brassnecked, dx, LFI and me.  Can you answer please? 

[Ted_3022]

Thanks all for your responses, really appreciated!

I wrote the appeal on an online form and now don't have the exact wording, however I expect that I probably (and stupidly..) used "I" in it somewhere as I wasn't as read in to all of this as I am now. Is it worth emailing them to get a copy of the appeal? In the meantime probably safe to assume I messed up and outed myself.

I will try to get to the car park in the next few days to get photos of the signage and post them up.

[honeybee13]

Don't beat yourself up over it, just make a mental note not to appeal any private parking tickets if it happens again. You aren't the first and you won't be the last.

We'll wait for the signage when you can.

HB

[FTMDave]

HB is right.  Every single one of us on CAG have made mistakes in legal disputes.  It's inevitable.  The important thing is to learn from the mistakes and get it right in future.

I've done a search on the forum for Alliance cases and they have never had the gonads to take a Cagger to court, not even once.  So you're in a great position.

[Ted_3022]

I've been back to the car park and taken some photos of the signs.

My initial observations are:

- Signage isn't particularly obvious on the drive in, you would have to get out of your car to realistically read them. There aren't any signs that face you as you drive in, only pinned to the wall on the left hand alongside signs for businesses. They are also on the opposite side to the drivers seat so the smaller text would be very difficult to read without getting out.

- The signs say the tariff applies immediately on entry and until exit, however this is contradicted by their stipulation that there is "No grace period" for only the 30 minute stay. This isn't specified on the longer stays, implying that there IS a grace period.

- It took me 3 minutes to read through the two different signs they have there, so if it takes you a few minutes to park, get your wallet etc, walk to the signs, then you're easily looking at 6+ minutes just to park then read their signs and T&Cs.

- Due to the location of the signs, you would already be recorded by their cameras before you would be able to read their T&Cs and their use of your personal details, images, etc.

Thanks for all of your advice so far, hopefully these photos help!

Seaview Photos.pdf

[brassnecked]

Don't think they can unilaterally remove any Grace period in T & C's even for a 30 minute stay.  What a mess.

[FTMDave]

Yes, the signage is contradictory.

But what most strikes me is that on the signs and in their letter they are adamant that payment is to be made from the time of entering to the time of exiting, which defies even their own trade association Code of Practice.

They no doubt think they're being clever with this extra fleecing but it will come back to bite them if they are daft enough to do court.

[Ted_3022]

Do you think it is worth contacting the Independant Appeals Service (IAS) with this evidence at all?

My current plan otherwise is to sit on it and wait for a Letter of Claim, then respond to that. Would the response to that include this evidence as well?

[honeybee13]

Good grief, no. The IAS is a kangaroo court.

HB

[Nicky Boy]

Nope and nope!

Wait for letter of claim.

You don't give any clues to the fleecers about how you might defend a claim...

Read a few threads, to get an idea how this all pans out.

Start with some of our "success" threads...

 

[brassnecked]

Appealing to the IAS will almost guarantee you will drop yourself in it.

[lookinforinfo]

The signage being contradictory is good news for you. You are allowed to choose which option suits you better.

[honeybee13]

You should never say anything that tells them who was driving at the time of the parking event.

Also don't give away any of your arguments. At this stage you want to show them that you'll be trouble if they take this as far as court. Do a search using our Search box - top right of this page, a white box in the red strip - for snotty letter. There are some good ones here.

HB

[Ted_3022]

Hi Everyone!

As expected, the Letter of Claim arrived on Tuesday 26th Sept through my letter box (attached).

I will draft a response to it later today, using examples like this as a guide. Is there anything I should include / definitely not include in my response?

As always - any advice very much appreciated and I will definitely be donating to the CAG after all of this!

(Thanks HB!)

Letter of Claim.pdf

[Ted_3022]

Please see my draft response, welcome any feedback!

Assuming I need to attach it with this response pack, and tick boxes D and H?

 

Dear Alliance Parking,

I must say, your Letter of Claim dated 20^th September 2023 has left me utterly astounded. It's truly heartwarming to see your company's commitment to communication and fairness. I almost choked on my coffee while reading your demand for the rather modest sum of £170.

In response to your request for prompt payment, I'd like to inform you that I've been busily counting my pennies and searching for spare change in the couch cushions to expedite this matter. Alas, my efforts have not borne fruit yet, but I assure you I'm working tirelessly on it.

Your generous offer to visit www.alliance-parking.co.uk/payments for payment is indeed tempting, calling out to all those who dare to overstay their welcome by mere minutes. Truly, you have a knack for compassion.

The mention of County Court Pre-Action Protocol is a nice touch. It's heartening to know that the County Court has graciously allowed you to pursue justice on its behalf.  I also appreciate your concern about my defending the claim via a County Court Hearing. Rest assured, I'm already preparing my Academy Award-winning performance for that event. Your suggestion to engage in an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) process is almost as delightful as the thought of you trying to justify these charges during a cost-of-living crisis. How charming!

I simply can't wait for the opportunity to highlight the dross that your so-called "highly trained professionals" have produced during the court proceedings. It's not every day one gets to witness such a display of excellence, almost on a par with your company’s Google reviews – a real masterpiece in itself.  I would love for local media to be involved in the whole process to showcase Alliance Parking’s full, benevolent credentials.

Lastly, I can't thank you enough for suggesting I seek advice from a solicitor or contact The Citizens Advice Bureau. Who knew I'd require legal counsel for a parking charge? I'll consider it, right after I finish searching for my lost fortune in spare change.

Yours with great amusement,

XXXX

[dx100uk]

you dont use the forms at all

#dx

[Nicky Boy]

This has GOT to be in the running for snotty letter of the year!

[FTMDave]

The level of snottiness is stratospheric!

The only slight tweakings are (a) as dx says, use their stupid forms as toilet paper/as hamster cage bedding/to play paper aeroplanes with/etc., no respect should be shown for their daft procedures at all and (b) change "who dare to overstay their welcome by mere minutes" to "who dare to break whatever stupid unenforceable rules you make up" as you shouldn't be admitting to having done anything wrong at all.

Invest in a 2nd class stamp - that's all they're worth - tomorrow and get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office.