GXS/Trace DCA 2*ANPR PCNs - appeals refused - Lady Bee Marina, Shoreham Port

[Whirlwind79]

Dear forum members, please can you consider my case and next steps. Thank you.  

I received 2 PCNs for parking in Lady Bee Marina, Shoreham Port owned land. 2 evenings on consecutive weeks.

PCN 1 17/10/2023,

PCN 2 26/10/2023

I appealed both through online appeal portal within 21 days.

PCN 1 on basis that signage wasn't clear to indicate it was land controlled by GXS and ANPR.

Appealed PCN 2 on basis that PCN 1 did not arrive in the post until 10 days after PCN 1 and I parked again in same spot within 8 days, reason again unclear signage. 

Mitigating factors:

It was dark when I parked on both occasions.

There was a Shoreham Port Authority logo sign visible, attached to the only lamp post in the area,  saying 'Shoreham Port authorised users only' no mention of GXS or parking conditions on this sign.

I parked directly under this lamp post intentionally, assessing this to be the safest place as a woman on my own in a dark car park in a quiet, non-residential area. There have been recent assaults on women in the area, so my attention primarily was on my safety and getting from my car to the building.

I was attending an evening class within Shoreham port authority buildings and believed that I was authorised to park.

On returning to the area in the daylight after I received the PCNs, I noted there is no sign as you enter the area from the road at all to indicate there are parking conditions.  There was a GXS sign behind the area where I parked, low down at knee height attached to railings by the harbour edge. It explains you need to pay to park on an app. 

I did not receive a response to the appeals.

On 12/12/2023 I receive a final demand letter in post from GXS with charge increased to £160 per PCN. 

I contact GXS on 12/12/2023 by email, and 15/12 and 24/12 by telephone (left voicemail) to explain I had not received the outcome of my appeals. 

21/12/2023 Letter received from Trace debt recovery informing me GXS have passed by case to them, with charges increased to £170 per PCN, £340 in total.

27/12/2023 I receive an email from GXS with a copy of the outcome of appeal letter attached to the email with the date 14/11/2023, no wording in email to say whether this letter  was allegedly sent in post or emailed.   Outcomes of appeal 'declined' for both, on basis that signage meets industry standards. This is the first time I have received this letter. 

28/12/2023 I telephone GXS. No answer, leave a voicemail asking them to update their system with the outcome of appeal letter date to 27/12/2023, to allow me to action the options in the outcome of appeal letter (1. second stage appeal or 2. pay the charge of £60).

As I did not receive the letter of 14/11/2023, both these options are blocked to me as more than 21 days have passed since that date. No response received from GXS. 

8/1/2024 I telephone trace to inform of above and that I can't get through . Trace say that GXS will not communicate with me as case passed to Trace.

9/1/2024 I submit a complaint to GXS on the complaints email address on their website. No response received to date. 

10/1/2024 Email received from Trace, who inform me they have spoken with GXS who report that "It is too late to make claims I did not receive a response to your appeal", as it says on PCN that if you do not hear from us within 28 days, please contact us, do not assume your appeal has been successful. 

12/1/2024 I submit a complaint about GXS customer service to IPC.

My points are:

1. GXS online appeals portal unfair for 'customer' as it doesn't generate any record for the customer of the appeal submission - no reference number, no copy of your appeal statement, no ability to enter the portal after submission to check status/date/content of your appeal is emailed to you. 

The customer is therefore unaware of the date they submitted the appeal and cannot go back to the portal and check. Customer has to use guess work as to when they submitted the appeal to calculate when to contact GXS if they haven't received a response. 

2.  My argument is that when I contacted GXS on 12 Dec,  I had no record of the appeal submission date. I recall submitting the appeals middle of November roughly, so contacting GXS 12 Dec I don't believe to be 'too late', that is GXS's opinion. GXS don't say how soon after 28 days to contact them. 

12/2/2024 IPC respond and say they are satisfied GXS have not breached member code of conduct in this case.

GXS have provided them with system report of letters and emails sent, showing they emailed the outcome of appeal letter 14/11, copied it to me by email 13/12.  (I did not received either of these emails, have checked junk and contact my email provider for support, there is no system record of those emails arriving at my inbox). 

IPC didn't comment about the issues I raised about appeals portal. 

I am unsure of next steps.  Please advise. 

 

[honeybee13]

Hello, welcome to CAG.

Could you let us have the information requested in the forum sticky please? That will help us to advise you.

Best, HB

[dx100uk]

next time never ever appeal and never ever ring or email a private parking company or their powerless dogs. a DCA is NOT A BAILIFF

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/411793-gxsgladstones-windscreen-pcn-claimform-shoreham-port-basin-rd-southwick-hn41-1wf-claim-discontinued/

 

[FTMDave]

Yes, please fill in the sticky - twice.  Once for each invoice.  There are legal timeframes for sending out these tickets so dates are important.

As for the rest.  You have - completely understandably - made the mistake of thinking you were dealing with reputable people.  You weren't.

Once upon a time there was only one parking association, the British Parking Association, with an appeals body that was half decent to motorists.  This was extremely annoying for the complete cowboys in the industry.

So the two directors of the firm of solicitors most involved in the industry set up a rival trade association the IPS and its appeals body the iAS.  Yes - the trade association, its appeals body and the solicitors who got the legal work - all run by the same people!  No conflict of interest there! 

GXS know their signage is rubbish, and so do the IAS, it's meant to be rubbish to entrap motorists.  Complaining to the very people who set up this disgusting scheme has logically got you nowhere, plus you've probably outed yourself as the driver.

So sticky x2 please, upload the invoice both sides x2, then we'll take it from there.

[dx100uk]

worthy to note this area is cover by port of authority byelaws too.

and 

Port reinforce importance of responsible parking - Shoreham Port (shoreham-port.co.uk) 

where it clearly states FINE, which means it's cover by the byelaws and thus  only the port authority can issue the required penalty charge notice

a powerless private parking company cannot do that.

thread title updated.

Byelaws_2012_Shoreham_Port_Authority_approved.pdf

[Whirlwind79]

Info for PCN 1: 

1 Date of the infringement 17/10/2023

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 20/10/2023
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide] please LEAVE IN LOCATION AND ALL DATES/TIMES/£'s

 

3 Date received 27/10/2023
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] N
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Y
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Y - no copy of it available, did it through GXS online appeals portal. after you press 'submit' it disappears and you can't re-enter portal. 
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Y
 

7 Who is the parking company? GXS Services Ltd

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Shoreham Port Authority Lady Bee Marina, Southwick, BN42 4EG
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

IAS
 

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure,

please check HERE

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here

 

Copy the windscreen or ANPR section to your thread and answer the questions...

……....

In either case scan up bothsides of any letters/tickets in or appeals made out to ONE MULTIPAGE PDF ONLY

PCN 1 redacted.pdf outcome of appeal PCN1 letter.pdf

[Whirlwind79]

Info for PCN 2: 

1 Date of the infringement 26/10/2023

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 30/10/2023
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide] please LEAVE IN LOCATION AND ALL DATES/TIMES/£'s

 

3 Date received 6/11/2023
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] N
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Y
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Y
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Y
 

7 Who is the parking company? GXS Services Ltd

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Shoreham Port Authority Lady Bee Marina, Southwick, BN42 4EG
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

IAS
 

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure,

please check HERE

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here

final reminder from GXS dated 6.12.23. Received 13.12.23

 

PCN 2 redacted.pdf outcome of appeal PCN2.pdf

[dx100uk]

did you get a notice to driver left on the windscreen each time? 

cause the uploads labelled pcn are not a pcn but a notice to keeper.

there needs to be a NTD or a PCN somewhere in the total hashup GXS is performing .

and people are blindly paying these invoices where they are not even complying with their own trade bodies rules....

dx

[Whirlwind79]

Hi @dx100uk, No, nothing on windscreen. Notice to driver arrived in the post. 

 

[dx100uk]

dont confuse a notice to driver (which must be placed on the windscreen) or a parking charge notice sent within 14 days through the post with what you have uploaded  - which are parking charge - notice to keeper. letter

a NTD or a PCN must be issued FIRST before a notice to keeper is issued.

@ftmdave @lookinforinfoam i going dumb dumb here 

[Whirlwind79]

Nothing on windscreen ever.

I received 'Parking Charge - Notice to Keeper' letters each time in the post. 

I did not receive anything else. 

Apologies, I confused the terms in previous post. 

The 'parking charge -  notice to keeper' letters are the files I uploaded . 

[dx100uk]

NTK's mean nothing if a NTD or a PCN has not previously been issued. FIRST

GXS are muppets.

dx

[Whirlwind79]

Notice to Keeper

WWW.PARKINGCOWBOYS.CO.UK

---

This page describes what a Notice to Keeper issued by a private parking company is, and what to do when you receive one

 This seems to suggest that when ANPR used, they send notice to keeper. Is this not correct? 

[FTMDave]

I see that the idiots have issued one invoice for "not purchasing a valid parking session" and the other for "unauthorised vehicle".  Presumably the former is "correct" but they've messed up with the second.  How was it supposed to become authorised then?  Is there anything on the signs about authorised vehicles? - I bet not.

I think this is ANPR capture dx as they have entrance & exit times.

4 hours ago, Whirlwind79 said:

I am unsure of next steps.  Please advise.

Well it's up to you.

You can pay £340 and the matter will go away.

Or you can fight this vile company.  We would prefer you did the latter.

They are a small company.  We have only six cases. 

Out of the six cases they have only tried court once and that was because the Cagger was out of the country so didn't reply to a Letter of Claim - and when the claim was defended they wet themselves and gave in.

So your call.

If you fight them we will help all the way.

Be aware though that they will cut down half the Amazon with their so-called frightening letters and there is the chance of court especially as they may get greedy with two tickets.  As others have said, the law is on your side - rubbish signage, bye-laws, etc.

If you decide not to pay, as we hope, we will have various ideas for building up evidence against them.

[Whirlwind79]

Thank you. 

Re: the reasons.

I think that the specific area I parked in within the car park both times is designated for Lady Bee Marina boat owners.

It did say 'Lady Bee Marina - authorised users' on the Shoreham Port sign I think (I foolishly thought that covered me as the course I was attended was in a building in Lady Bee Marina, but now know there are people that live on the boats in the marina I think there are specific places for them to park)

I am feeling very worn down by this all, I've spent so much time on it already.

I was prepared to pay the £60x2 if the appeal was declined.

I appealed in good faith.

GXS refusing to accept I didn't receive the outcome of appeal emails and refusing to change the outcome of appeal letter date to the date I actually received it (27 Dec) and upping the charge to £340 is completely unjustified and makes me want to fight it.  

It is worth offering to pay the £60x2 to settle the matter.

That is the outcome I would settle for to be honest? 

If I do fight it, it would be the rubbish signage, particularly in the dark.

There really aren't visible signs to indicate there is ANPR and that it is controlled by GXS.

No signs at all as you pull off the highway into that area.

You really aren't aware of the 'contract' you are entering into as you drive in.

It is very poor. 

[dx100uk]

don't worry you won't be paying a penny.

[FTMDave]

Just so you're aware of the people you are dealing with.

We have cases for another GXS site.  This is a car park in the centre of a small-ish town which local people have used for years.  Then the owners brought GXS in.  And put up lots of signs.  So local people drove in, saw the signs that they weren't supposed to be there and drove out again.  They did the right thing.  GXS's trade association allows motorists a 5-minute consideration period to read the signs.  It's logical that to read a sign and realise you shouldn't be there you need some time to read the signs!  The drivers left within the five minutes.

GXS still issued their invoices.

They don't care about the law, they don't care about complaints, they care about intimidating motorists into paying money they don't owe.

All your efforts aimed at them and their bezzies was never going to work.  It's like if you were threatened by the Mafia to pay extortion money and you decided to complain to the Mafia.  The result would be obvious.  Not your fault though. 

As you're up for fighting them your next steps should be -

1.  Go back to the car park and take photos of the signs, both close-up and as a motorist would see them, both in broad daylight and at night.

2.  Get onto the organ grinder.  Write to the Shoreham Port Authority, emphasise your right to be there, the invisible signage at night, your worries about violence against women - and demand that they call their dogs off.

3.  Invest in a 2nd class stamp, get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office, and send a SAR to GXS.  Stick in some I.D. such as a Council Tax bill otherwise they will use lack of I.D. as an excuse not to cooperate.  They will then have to either
   - send all the documentation showing their dodgy behaviour re your appeals
   - lie about the same (which would be very dangerous for them)
   - refuse to comply with the SAR (meaning you could sue them!)

[Nicky Boy]

Hi Whirlwind,

15 hours ago, Whirlwind79 said:

I was attending an evening class within Shoreham port authority buildings and believed that I was authorised to park.

So, I believe that makes you a "customer"...

A quick look around Google streetview has brought up what I think is your "get out of jail free" card.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8312597,-0.235747,3a,30.3y,289.78h,86.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0_cDvYgf5eH99WfkLmHiQA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

When you go back to take pics, just make sure this sign (and any like it) are still there.

[lookinforinfo]

Dx100 no you are not going dumb. so here is the ruling on PCNs.

The PCN on the windscreen is usually described as "Notice to Driver"

The PCN sent through the post within 14 days or between 28 and 56 days can be called a Parking Charge Notice or  Notice to Keeper. This PCN is recognised whichever name it goes by by the fact that it must contain the information required in the Protection of Freedoms 2012 Schedule 4. 

I think Nicky Boy alluded to the same thing a couple of days ago in another thread.

The crux of the matter is that it is up to the parking company to decide whether to issue a windscreen ticket or send one through the post. it my well be that the person taking the photos in the car park is not qualified [or not  an employee of the parking company] .

when applying to the DVLA they will be asked why a windscreen ticket was not issued. I have no way of knowing if the DVLA ever refuse data whn a w/s ticket is not issued if they are not happy with the response from the parking company. I would doubt it. the DVLA  seems as venal as some of the parking companies it serves.

 

[Nicky Boy]

Also, ignore my last post.

The streetview date was 2020.

Signage has changed on the latest 2023 views.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8312597,-0.2355833,3a,15.8y,88h,89.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sp0Zw6koxjallpnscvYcy_w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

BUT!.. Have a good look around to see if any of the old signage is still there. (Or, indeed ANY conflicting signage).

[FTMDave]

So presuming you've written to the Shoreham Port Authority and sent a SAR to GXS, let's move on.

A bit of legal stuff.

It has always been a problem for disgusting companies like GXS that they don't know who the driver of the car was.  They know who the registered keeper is from the DVLA but that is neither here nor there.  Lots of people drive other people's cars.  My son often drives mine.  So they are left with no-one to sue.

So they got parliament to add a section in 2012 to the Protection of Freedoms Act, meaning they can go after the keeper.  But only for private land - like a supermarket car park.  That is what the act deals with.  Not areas under statutory control such as the open road.  Or areas with bye-laws - like airports, train station car parks ...

... or ports.

See where I'm going with this?

In your case they don't know who the driver is, and they can't go after the keeper.  So they've screwed.  Nothing they can do ...

... unless you outed yourself as the driver in your appeals.  Can you remember if you did this?  If not the answer should come up in the SAR, which is one of the reasons for sending it.

[Whirlwind79]

Thanks @FTMDave. Plan to request SAR and go and take photos over the next week. I didn’t say I was driver in the appeal, but said I parked there so likely outed myself tbh!

[FTMDave]

Don't worry.

If you outed yourself as the driver that's just one avenue cut off.  There's also the matter of the appalling signage, the fact the site is subject to bye-laws that trump any daft rules a private company might make up, etc.

The sooner you get the SAR off the better and the sooner you contact the Port Authority the more likely they are to help.

[lookinforinfo]

It appears that you parked in an area that is covered by Bye laws from the port. Therefore GXS cannot put on theor PCN that they can pursue you under the protection of freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.

in the first instance I would complain to your local Trading Standards who would be able to confirm where you parked is covered by bye laws. This is a serious offence so please do complain as it may get many locals out of paying, not just yourself. 

Once you get confirmation get the local newspaper involved too.

[Nicky Boy]

8 hours ago, lookinforinfo said:

Therefore GXS cannot put on theor PCN that they can pursue you under the protection of freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.

This is questionable LFI.

Although they've used some of the wording, they haven't specifically stated they're using POFA... Just a misleading statement that they have the right to pursue the keeper. Which, of course they haven't!