Trying to collect judgement but bailiffs unsuccesful

[randm]

OK, I will keep my fingers crossed!

 

I am sure he will get back to me in the morning.

 

I have found you help very useful, I hope it will work! I am also hoping that after sending my evidence tomorrow I will not get anything back from them that I have to comb through once again. Baby's being induced next week so I have very limited time now.

[AndyOrch]

Claim recently dismissed for not complying with the format on a witness statement ...

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?481379-Lowell-claimform-old-Cap1-card-debt-***Claim-Dismissed***/page3

 

and See 4.1

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part22/pd_part22#4.1

 

Andy

[randm]

Hmm, I need to wait, I can't have the case struck out at this point, it would be an awful waste of time.

 

the statement I have was emailed to me.

 

Can I use that as a statement of case reliably, just like I have submitted emails as part of evidence? As long as I specify it is not a witness statement due to the lack of structure?

 

I am now having difficulty getting in touch with the witness here.

 

what options do I have on this?

 

Surely as he wrote and sent the statement to me I can still use it as evidence?

 

I know it won't be a witness statement, but surely it can still be used if I send a covering letter along with it?

 

Can I put the statement into the evidnece as above but then as soon as I get the correct statement, send it in?

[BankFodder]

Yes, the statement doesn't really become a formally accepted document until it is tendered in court. I suggest that you tender the statements you have and mark them "draft, version with statement of truth will be made available in court on the hearing date".

 

It's probably a bit unconventional but I don't see the problem.

[randm]

Hi There, I just go the statement back from the witness, he has been a little busy.

 

So one other thing is that the owners of the defendants company have made statements. I have not. Do I need to? I have very little to say other than the facts of the claims and my rebuttle to their defence.

[BankFodder]

Well you could provide a skeleton argument – outlining the points that you propose to make and referring to documents in your bundle and to the statements which have been provided to you.

 

Also, you could prepare a statement which refers to the points made in the defendant's statements and outlines what you're arguments to them are.

 

This might clarify things for the court.

 

On the other hand, it seems to me that there is a lot of paper building up and I can tell you that for small claims like this, the courts don't like it at all. They have a workload to get through and they would rather cut through this kind of thing in 20 minutes.

 

How many statements have you received from the defendant? How long are they? What point are they making?

[randm]

So the problem is this:

 

The recipient of the parcel, I had enough from him form the emails between us, saying "wow, the damage was increddible etc etc"

 

The supplier of the printers also emailed me in June about them not being avaialble or repairable.

 

I submitted my evidence. The defendants then used that to call up these people, pretend they were working for me, and then used info gleaned from leading questions to discredit my evidence and essentially make me out to be liar.

 

These 2 people now want to do a statement to clarify their one and only view. They genuinely want to help me.

 

Add to this I have witness statements from the owners and a worker of the defendants that essentially say I never replied to them, that my business details changed making it difficult for them. Neither is true.

 

So a worker of mine has decided to give me a statement focused on the facts of the last emails sent/received. the calls received by them and also the fact that she has been actually trying to contact them for 3 months to settle invoices that we can;t because they have some incorrectly priced.

[BankFodder]

This is getting rather complicated – and it probably should have all been sorted out a long time ago. I can assure you that the court will want it all fairly simple and cut and dried. From everything I understand, your case is good your position is good and you don't need to feel unconfident.

 

On the other hand, starting to look to me as if this is all very badly organised.

 

I understand that your witnesses somehow gave information to the defendant and the defendant has now produced statements relying on the information they received. Is this correct?

 

You also have a statement from the owners which relates to your alleged behaviour and your alleged contact details et cetera. This correct?

[randm]

Yes correct on both counts.

 

Originally I did not need witness statements because the evidence was enough. It was all very simple. However the defendant has contacted these guys since getting my evidence. They have not asked permission and both witnesses are very unhappy at how information was extracted and of course they are worried that what they said and the questions being asked were being abused. You know when you had a conversation and then a day later you have a bit of a light bulb moment where you think "those pesky peeps have pulled one on me". That's how it is and they have both spoken to me about it and want to make a final statement to be clear. One of the statements is very damming to the defendants, they pretended to be me.

 

I will also state that the defendant's email evidence has been cut and pasted, emails have been re-ordered to look better for them and they have missed out key emails in the threads to make it look like I have not contacted them. It is rather astonishing.

 

I have to resubmit evidence because it is vital to getting to the truth, nothing to do with me, its the truth we seek here. And I will state that on the cover note.

[BankFodder]

Well in that case I think that the witness statements each need to rebut the defendant statement point by point. Use the structure which I gave you in my original document. In the left-hand column, the paragraph number of the defendant statement and in the right-hand column the witnesses comments. End it with a statement of truth.

 

I suggest that you also prepare a statement of rebuttal using exactly the same style.

 

Keep it short – nonnarrative as possible. If you use the same style then it is very easy for the judge to see on the left side he said on the right side we said

[Ganymede]

Yes correct on both counts.

 

Originally I did not need witness statements because the evidence was enough. It was all very simple. However the defendant has contacted these guys since getting my evidence. They have not asked permission and both witnesses are very unhappy at how information was extracted and of course they are worried that what they said and the questions being asked were being abused. You know when you had a conversation and then a day later you have a bit of a light bulb moment where you think "those pesky peeps have pulled one on me". That's how it is and they have both spoken to me about it and want to make a final statement to be clear. One of the statements is very damming to the defendants, they pretended to be me.

 

I will also state that the defendant's email evidence has been cut and pasted, emails have been re-ordered to look better for them and they have missed out key emails in the threads to make it look like I have not contacted them. It is rather astonishing.

 

I have to resubmit evidence because it is vital to getting to the truth, nothing to do with me, its the truth we seek here. And I will state that on the cover note.

 

Whose permission? They don't need yours, there is no property in a witness.

 

I think you response should be in the format of a Reply to Defence and address each point in the Defence in turn.

[randm]

OK, I think thats the best advice. I have stuck to the facts at every stage so I'm confident i'm OK.

[randm]

Hi Guys

 

Sorry for the delay on this, it has been manic the past few weeks. However I wanted to just drop you a line and say that the court case has been won 100%, decisively and also with a statement from the judge about the defendants trying to discredit me. So it has been a great success and worth doing.

 

Only negative thing was the items that got broke were slightly older than I realised so I got the value of the claim diminished due to that and the depreciation the judge thought was apt (50% for 2 and 2.5 year old 3D printers). i thought that was a little harsh, but I still came away with an OK amount, enough to at least replace one and get going again. However he also did not give the defendants my older machines and noted that I might be able to get something working from both machines. I understand that I cannot be in a "better" position than before, but the reality is that I am in a worse position, but hey, I get that that and am happy with the outcome.

 

Our initial thoughts on the defence were proved to be bang on. They brought up anything they could to try to remove liability, other than actually arguing why they were not in breach of the SOGASA 1982. The time to report was thrown out, the fact that I did not follow terms that did not exist was thrown out and all the "unfair terms" arguments were rightfully thrown out.

 

They also tried to discredit me and my business. They brought up that I had evaded contact, changed my contact details and that my business was the same. All clearly untrue. In fact the Judge made reference to witness statements about this and made a special record that whilst I had acquitted myself in an exemplary manner, the defendants attempt to discredit me was ill thought, missed the point and did not help the defence at all. he also was not happy that I represented my business as the owner unyet the defendants only sent a Manager.

 

So in a nutshell it was pretty clear cut. Stick to the advice, stick to the belief in the fact the contract was breached and why and also stand up firm against the bulldozing late on and I won.

 

I am very grateful to the help I have received here, without which I think things could have gotten tricky. As soon as I get the money owed to me I will make a donation. It's the least I can do. I will also be creating a document about my case and blogging that out and when i do I will let you know as it could be used here for many people. I think its now time issues like this need some clear steps and help on!

 

If there's anything I can do to help you wrap things up for yours and the benefit of this site then just let me know.

[AndyOrch]

Well done randm ..thread title amended accordingly.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BankFodder]

Well done. However people may simply think that I'm being blasé if I say that I'm not at all surprised. The only thing that surprises me is that they decided to go to court and risk losing. Losing was the obvious result.

 

Which firm of solicitors was it that handled the case please? Which firm of solicitors presumably went along with it and encourage them and convinced them that trying to defeat you was the right way forward.

 

This case will be extremely helpful to anyone who finds themselves dealing with a courier company which charges 100% for their service and then delivers less than 100% of the service it has promised – and even tries to ask for more money to insure against their own breach of contract (just like an extended warranty).

 

Thank you very much indeed for the offer of a donation. We will be very pleased to accept. However, what will be more useful would be to have a transcript of the case – not just the final order.

 

We would appreciate far more than a straight donation and if you could phone the court and start to organise a transcript. This will cost money, of course but if you want to donate to that and we will make up the balance then this would be extremely helpful to anyone else who has similar problems.

 

Seeing the judge's comments published here will encourage others and give them confidence to stand up to corporate bullying of any type.

 

If this interests you, then please telephone the court. Asked them for the name of a transcription service, call the service and start putting it in hand. You can email me directly on our admin email address.

[randm]

Hi There, answers below:

 

There were no solicitors involved from either side as far as I could tell at all. I never spoke to or saw any on either side.

 

I will ask for a transcript of the case. Do you know how much that usually costs. My concern is that this case went on for hours due to the defendants droning on and on. If we pay per PDF page it could be huge.

 

I am happy to provide the transcript, however can you confirm that everything will remain anonymous. i don't think it's fair to the defendant or me to post anything publicly, even if the transcript is public knowledge.

[BankFodder]

We'll find the money for the transcript. Don't worry.

 

The transcription service will give you a quote. They won't charge you anything until the price has been notified to you and agreed.

 

There is no problem about redacting it however in terms of being fair to the defendant, it's a public document and personally I have no qualms about putting it up – including their name. They have been relentless in their pursuit of you and their attempt to avoid their obligations. You are very unusual in that you stood up for yourself. They have heaps of other customers who get frightened about it and who back down. I don't think you need to worry about being fair to the defendant. I'm afraid that I'm much more interested in being fair to all the other customers of this company and any other courier company that get bulldozed into accepting mediocre treatment

[AndyOrch]

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?477832-LEGAL-Requesting-a-Court-Transcript

[randm]

Hi guys

 

The defendants have logged an appeal.

I will upload the docs later.

 

They are saying that the judge was wrong in terms of ignoring their own terms, despite that fact that my whole case was based upon the fact that they were in breach of them.

 

They also claim that the judge has made an award that is too high, despite leaving me out of pocket by about 50% an unable to actually put myself in the position I was before the damage was done.

 

They discredited me, they now seem fit to make a mockery of the law by discrediting that and in turn the judge it seems.

 

Questions:

 

Is it likely that this will go to appeal?

 

If so what can I do to claim anything extra from them?

Surely all this hassle is now worth something?

 

I am writing a letter into the courts as advised by the court helpers you call up.

 

Any help is appreciated as always.

 

I uploaded the appeal reasons here.

 

They have also stated they will hold the monies back as they don;t deem me credible to give them back if they win the appeal!!

 

Can I claim back lost interest and business due to this?

Appeal.pdf

[BankFodder]

Is it likely to go on to appeal? – Yes

 

Can you claim anything extra from them? – No not in terms of damages but any extra costs incurred might be available although because it is under the small claims rules, probably not.

 

You certainly should write a letter to the court in the sense that you should be responding to their grounds of appeal. Check back here either today or tomorrow and I will put something together. Don't rush off and do it yourself

 

I started have a brief look and I see that they are referring to what the judge said – quite naturally. We did ask you do get a copy of the transcript. Is that underway?

 

I see that they are asking for leave to appeal. In that case, my previous response was wrong because I hadn't understood the situation correctly. I thought you meant – with a bottle it rather than go to appeal. If you are asking will they be given leave to appeal, it's not possible to say.

[randm]

Hi there

 

Just to clarify the question of whether it will go to appeal., I meant is it likely that I will end up having to go back to an actual court hearing, IE it gets accepted and we have to then carry on with the whole thing again? I thought they had their chance, the judge made a decision unyet they are not letting the argument lie.

 

I asked about the transcript and then it got lost in a sea of having to run my own business!! I was told it would be a substantial cost as it is costed per page of dictation and the case was hours long. I will call them again to see if I can get an actual price.

 

Dave

[BankFodder]

Well if they get leave to appeal then yes you must go along. It is worth doing a good response to their request for leave – but the transcript would be enormously helpful.

 

I'm afraid that it is urgent now that you find the actual price and get back to here.

 

In order to mount a successful appeal they would have to show that the judge had ignored evidence or had made errors in law. The transcript will show us whether the judge did consider all the evidence and what exactly was said.

 

They may already have a transcript – and if they don't then I can imagine that they will be getting one. You will have to get one if you want the best chance of succeeding.

 

I already offered before to contribute to a transcript. We would still be interested in doing this – although we do have very few resources and of course the problem is that this transcript may not be the final say in it. If you can find out the cost of the transcript then I can let you know what we can do. I would expect that if you win the appeal then you may be able to put in for the cost of the transcript.

 

Of course, if their request for leave to appeal is turned down then that brings it all to an end anyway.

[BankFodder]

You could layout your response in a formal way with the name of the court on the left, the case number on the right and the names of the parties in the centre – or you could simply write a letter.

 

If you just write a letter then you should have a bold heading in the middle under the "dear Sir/Mdm".

 

The bold heading should certainly have the case number and the case name and also "claimant's comments on defendants application for leave to appeal"

 

Then I would suggest that you number your paragraphs to match the defendants paragraphs in the section 5 – grounds for appeal

 

 

1. Of paragraph 1… it is not correct that the judge disregarded the terms of the contract. The terms of the contract were fully discussed and alsoreferred to in the judgement. The district judge gave the terms full regard and his decision was made with them in mind.]
    
   
2. Of paragraph 2… The district judge was correct to disregard the intervening event because the damage had already occurred and been notified to the defendant
    
   
3. Of paragraph 3… The defendant is not correct to suggest that the district judge did not have regard to or did not properly deal with evidence provided by the independent witness. The judge made it clear that he would normally like to hear the witness in person but that he had read the written evidence and he accepted it and considered that there was no reason to disbelieve it.
   The defendants did not raise any objection to the use of the statements tendered in evidence during the hearing – is this true? If it isn't then please take out the sentence
    
   
4. Of paragraph 4… The district judge was correct in his approach to the assessment of the value of the damage machines because they are no longer available and so would have to be replaced by new models. The district judge did make a reduction to take account of the fact that some use had been had out of the printers before they were damaged by the claimant
   

please could you deal with the questions in red

[BankFodder]

Incidentally, I hope you still have that warm feeling about wanting to be fair to the defendants.

[randm]

I have no issue with recalling every word of the case, as I have that kind of memory. I will send in the transcript but I have to have the award before I can afford it. It seems a rough quote has come back at about £600 from my colleague.

 

How can the judge be wrong in the law? It was simple. I laid out good evidence to prove the were in breach of contract SOGAS 1982. They spent all their time trying to discredit me and fell flat on their faces. Now they want a 2nd go, largely using the same arguments as before? I'm sorry, I have to have faith that the system cannot allow for that surely?

 

I am just so dissapointed to see how this whole case can suddenly go from having the confidence of winning actually realised at its judgement but then in the space of 2 weeks (and on the back of these 4 reasons that quite frankly, go all round the houses once again), be so negative in outcome now.

 

I think if we can focus on a good response to this it should be enough.

 

I just realised you posted the same time as me, I will respond to that below...