VCS/BW PCN Nov 2014 - St Andrews Retail Park -- found CCJ served to old address

[ericsbrother]

you have to get the N244 in or any of this will be pointless.

 

The landowner wont help you, you have to demand the evidence from VCS so all you have done in asking the LL is wasted a stamp.

 

You must pay attention to other threads and that means reading hundreds of them and making note of what is relevant rather than doing something that isnt going to yield results. gte your pictures, they will be more damning to VCS than most things.

 

Thank you for taking time to post this very valuable information

 

I have written to the landlord asking if they have a contract with VCS which authorises VCS to act on their behalf.

I have had no reply so far.

 

I note that they have not proved who the driver was and that we will not tell them.

I note that protocols of POFA were not followed.

 

As this 'offence' occurred 2 years before the ccj was made is it possible that they will have no evidence of the parking offence occurring?

 

I need to initiate the set aside and then demand the information form BW/VCS?

 

Thanks again in anticipation of your reply.

Edited August 18, 2017 by honeybee13
Paras.

[Pagemaster]

One of the other threads or perhaps one of the other posters suggested that we write to the landlord, which is why we did that.

 

We have photos of the signs as they are now but not as they were in November 2014 so I don't think they will help us.

 

I think our defence should be that they don't know who the driver was and therefore should not have created a ccj against the keeper.

 

Secondly, we need to ask BW or VCS to prove they have a contract that authorises them to take people to court on the landlord's behalf and

 

thirdly we need to challenge the £54.

So VCS haven't followed the protocols of POFA.

 

Does that sound right?

 

I'll be submitting the set aside to the local court in Hull this week, probably tomorrow or Tuesday.

[dx100uk]

twas my bad I think

[Pagemaster]

Ok thanks dx. Does the rest of what I've written look right to you?

[lookinforinfo]

Simple two line defence should do

-I would prefer you just say that there was no POFA compliance [rather than querying the driver] and stating no locus standi.

 

 

You may have to explain that at the outset you did not have the knowledge to handle the removal of the CCj and you needed information from DVLA etc before you felt able enough to apply for the set aside since you needed to have a defence to follow up.

 

 

The lack of all the paperwork from VCS originally did hamper your investigation understandably as well as them offering to reduce the payment required to settle the debt were other factors.

 

 

It would have been pointless to get the set aside but then not have the information to refute the claim by VCS and thus have the ccj reinstated .

 

Emphasize that you had left the property several months after the alleged offence [and I think you said you had the Post office forward your mail ].

And that parking companies are notorious for going for CCJs when mail is returned.

 

Once granted, VCS will have to reapply to the Court where you can then query their paperwork, signage , POFA and Locus standi .

 

Good Luck.

[ericsbrother]

the pictures of the signs aren very helpful because if VCS produce the same pictures then they are lying so you do use them as evidence.

 

You never say you dont know who the driver was, you just state that the defendant (keeper) was not the driver so no cause for action against you in that capacity.

 

you ask for sight of contract when the set aside is granted from VCS under a CPR 31.14 request. They will have to show it to prove locus standi but you cab assert that you do not believe they have te right to make claims anyway and force them to show their hand

 

As for the added £54, that is nothing to do with POFA, it is just ann unlawful addition to the sume due if there is a contractual obligation. This is immaterial to the set aside claim as you are going to fight the lot.

Say things that are wrong and you will create the impression that everything else is wrong so if you are not sure say nothing.

Edited August 21, 2017 by honeybee13
Paras

[Pagemaster]

Simple two line defence should do

-I would prefer you just say that there was no POFA compliance [rather than querying the driver] and stating no locus standi.

 

 

You may have to explain that at the outset you did not have the knowledge to handle the removal of the CCj and you needed information from DVLA etc before you felt able enough to apply for the set aside since you needed to have a defence to follow up.

 

 

The lack of all the paperwork from VCS originally did hamper your investigation understandably as well as them offering to reduce the payment required to settle the debt were other factors.

 

 

It would have been pointless to get the set aside but then not have the information to refute the claim by VCS and thus have the ccj reinstated .

 

Emphasize that you had left the property several months after the alleged offence [and I think you said you had the Post office forward your mail ].

And that parking companies are notorious for going for CCJs when mail is returned.

 

Once granted, VCS will have to reapply to the Court where you can then query their paperwork, signage , POFA and Locus standi .

 

Good Luck.

 

Thank you for your helpful reply - we will use this information .

[lookinforinfo]

Most people go to the parking-prankster blog but he has another site which you might find helpful too.

 

he has a lot on there about Parking Eye but he does an interesting dissection of Excel's attempts at justifying their £100 pre-estimate of loss.

 

He compares VCS with Excell especially as they have identical charges despite being two quite different animals.

 

When you get to the Witness Statement time putting them to strict proof on their £100 .

 

If the Judge doesn't accept their figures the case will be thrown out and your CCJ disappear for good.

 

There are two cases that might give you a clearer picture of how to defend.

 

One of them is Excel but both companies often operate in similar manner even if they do operate different types of car park.

 

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/vcs-lose-claim-no-keeper-liability.html

 

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/pofa-or-not-pofa-that-is-question.html

 

The extra £50 charge is often a "solicitors" charge which would be their in house person.

 

Their cost would have already been included in the £100 cost so they are trying to double charge.

[Pagemaster]

the pictures of the signs aren very helpful because if VCS produce the same pictures then they are lying so you do use them as evidence.

 

You never say you dont know who the driver was, you just state that the defendant (keeper) was not the driver so no cause for action against you in that capacity.

 

you ask for sight of contract when the set aside is granted from VCS under a CPR 31.14 request. They will have to show it to prove locus standi but you cab assert that you do not believe they have te right to make claims anyway and force them to show their hand

 

As for the added £54, that is nothing to do with POFA, it is just ann unlawful addition to the sume due if there is a contractual obligation. This is immaterial to the set aside claim as you are going to fight the lot.

Say things that are wrong and you will create the impression that everything else is wrong so if you are not sure say nothing.

 

Thank you for this very valuable information. I have read on another forum that I need a draft defence, a draft order and a draft witness statement

 

Do I need a draft defence, a draft order and a draft witness statement, or can I just fill the n244 in without them? I read this on an older post on the legal seagulls forum I think.

 

Most people go to the parking-prankster blog but he has another site which you might find helpful too.

 

he has a lot on there about Parking Eye but he does an interesting dissection of Excel's attempts at justifying their £100 pre-estimate of loss.

 

He compares VCS with Excell especially as they have identical charges despite being two quite different animals.

 

When you get to the Witness Statement time putting them to strict proof on their £100 .

 

If the Judge doesn't accept their figures the case will be thrown out and your CCJ disappear for good.

 

There are two cases that might give you a clearer picture of how to defend.

 

One of them is Excel but both companies often operate in similar manner even if they do operate different types of car park.

 

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/vcs-lose-claim-no-keeper-liability.html

 

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/pofa-or-not-pofa-that-is-question.html

 

The extra £50 charge is often a "solicitors" charge which would be their in house person.

 

Their cost would have already been included in the £100 cost so they are trying to double charge.

 

Thank you for your help.

 

This is the draft defence that I have compiled. Please let me know your opinions:-

 

1 It is denied that the Defendant owes the Claimants £264.50 as stated in their particulars of claim.

 

2. VCS have failed to use all of the protocols of POFA

 

3. I do not believe that VCS have authority from the land owner to act on their behalf in court – therefore there is no locus standi

 

4. I am the keeper of the car, not the driver. More than one person drives my car.

 

5. There was no cause for action because the event didn’t occur.

[ericsbrother]

1. state why- ie both the amount claimed icaqn never be correct as the contractual sum, if applicable is £90 (or whatever) and their fixed costs are £50 (plus court fee of £25) so the additioanl amount cannot be justified.

 

2 VCS have failed to use the protocols of the POFA to create a keeper liability and have not idnetified the driver at the time therefore there is no KEEPER liability in this matter and thus no basis for claim against the defendant

 

3. I do not belive that VCS has the authority to enter into contracts and to make leagla claims in their own name assigned to them by the landowner and therefore no locus standi.

4. I was not the driver at the time of the event and in the absence of a keeper liability being created am not the debtor.

 

5 VCS have failed to show evidence that the event giving rise to the claim occurred by way of imagery, documentary evidnece etc so therefor have faield to show a cause for action against anyone, let alone the defendant in his capacity as keeper of the vehicle

 

Ok you have also put down the reasons for the set aside as well?

Ie papers served on wrong address etc

[Pagemaster]

Wonderful.

 

Does this go into the draft defence of the set aside?

Do I need a draft defence in the set aside?

it looks like I do?

 

Ok you ahve also put down the reasons for the set aside as well? Ie papers served on wrong address etc

 

The reason for the set aside is:-

 

Set judgement aside as the claim was issued at an old address so I had no opportunity to defend.

[dx100uk]

with proof of they knew your correct address

[Pagemaster]

Here is the draft order that I have prepared:-

 

IT IS ORDERED THAT:

 

Upon reading the defendant's application dated 21 August 2017

 

It is ordered that:

1 The judgment dated 13 October 2016 be set aside.

2 The Defendant shall file and serve its Defence by 4pm on 4 September 2017

3.The Claimant to pay the Defendant's costs of this application to the sum of £255

4.The Claimant has permission to file and serve a reply if so required.

 

When do I tell them about a counterclaim?

[Pagemaster]

with proof of they knew your correct address

 

We have the letter from DVLA showing that they asked for our address on 25 November 2014 only a few days after the 'offence' on 17 November 2014 .

It then took VCS nearly 2 years to get the CCJ which happened on 16 October 2016.

We moved in January 2015 and had the mail redirected which worked fine but nothing came from VCS or BW Legal.

 

The only letter we have received from VCS via BW Legal was dated 28 July 2017,

offering a 'discount' and asking for £150 instead of £264.50.

[ericsbrother]

they have to serve papers on the official address at the time and continue to do so unless you direct them to another address that paper may be served on.

 

As soon as they got their stuff returned "gone away"

they know you are unlikely to defend so they are happy to issue a summons to the old address knowing the risk of getting caught out is minimal and they are legally correct.

 

 

Knowing you arent there allows them to add all sorts of made up extras and that is why it is not for the original £90 r so

Edited August 23, 2017 by honeybee13
Paras

[Pagemaster]

Thank you for your helpful reply ericsbrother.

[Pagemaster]

Just to update, we submitted the application to Hull County Court.

They rang us the next day to say that the application was completed correctly but that it had to go to Salford.

They said they would post it for us, and that Salford would ring us the next day.

 

They didn't ring at all so I tried to get the number for Salford but was given the Northampton Business Centre number by Hull County Court.

 

I eventually got through to NBC only to be told that they couldn't confirm that they had received the application as it took 12 business days to process each application, and to then put it on the system.

 

I asked what would happen if the bailiffs came round in the next 12 days and he said that the bailiff should ring Northampton.

I said you just told me that you can't say what is happening with this for at least another two weeks....?

 

Ho hum.

[ericsbrother]

right,

forget the bailiffs they are only involved if the debt is more than £700

and then get an order from the high court so you wont be seeing anyone with any authority.

 

now you have lodged the N244 you can let VCS know that you are after a set aside and that the matter is now "live"

 

so you demand to see a copy of their contract with the landowner etc (see cpr 31.14 requests general content).

 

You may get lucky and they will not oppose the set aside and discontinue rather than risk paying you £255 plus your other costs for round 2

[Pagemaster]

Thank you yet again for your help.

 

I suppose I should write to BW Legal who are acting for VCS?

 

When I wrote to VCS once before I didn't get a reply.

 

I tried ringing them(BW Legal) and said that I wanted a set aside but they just said they couldn't hear me because of my phone signal.

 

I put the phone down on them

[brassnecked]

Looks like they know they are onto a loser, so are ignoring until asked to do something by the court.

[ericsbrother]

no point whatsoever doing that, do you seriously think they are going to get a respnse from them before the matter actually goes to court? atr the moment you owe them hundred of quid and they arent going to oblige you retaining it

[Pagemaster]

Thanks EB, we took your advice and sent two recorded delivery letters,

one to VCS and one to BW Legal today

asking them to provide a copy of the contract which allows VCS to act for the landlord and take people to court,

and advising them that we have applied for a set aside.

[ericsbrother]

OK, on the parking pranksters blog there is a report on a set-aside and hearing all in the same session.

This is because CEL are well kmown for getting CCJ's at old addresses and the filing garbage POC's.

They then fail to attend court when anyone defends as they know they dont have a claim in the first place.

 

 

Now you have asked for proof of locus you may well get the opportunity to get your lots claim thrown out by their failure to show they have any rights.

Again, they may well just go quiet once the hearing for the set aside becomes an open court matter rather than spend money defending the indefensible.

They havent got your cash yet so it will be limiting their exposure to costs they are more interested in and turning up just adds to that.

[Pagemaster]

Thanks for your help again EB, it is very much appreciated.

 

When I first came to this forum I was discouraged by the information I found,

mostly because it seemed to be almost an impossible task to sift through all the information here,

 

get information from DVLA,

then work out how to start a set aside and then how to find a defence to justify the set aside.

On top of that the cost of £255 would put a lot of people off.

 

I realise that people like yourself are volunteers, and also that you must get asked the same questions many times, which must be annoying.

 

You are answering questions on numerous topics too so the amount of time you are on here must be huge.

 

From my point of view, the average man in the street so to speak, knowing little about these procedures, this forum has been very helpful but it took me quite a while to realise that it was possible to overturn this CCJ.

 

We're waiting to see what happens next now that we have applied for a set aside.

We couldn't have got this far without the help of the people on the forum. I thank you all

[ploddertom]

 

right,

to get the bailiffs involved the debt has to be more than £700 and then get an order from the high court so you wont be seeing anyone with any authority.

 

 

Just to make it clear the above statement is incorrect. In this instance & because of the sum involved the only Bailiff who could be involved is the local County Court Bailiff but you would get a letter from them first. To employ a HCEO then the debt must be for more than £600 and not subject to the Consumer Credit Act. The mention of Bailiffs was merely a frightener as the Creditor would have to pay the £100 fee to engage them which is added to the debt. As there is no guarantee they will receive any payment at all then this should just be perceived as a threat only.