Parking Control Management invoice for moving house

[lordloz]

Hi everyone,

hope you can help and check my letter and offer any guidance I may have missed or messed up

- been  careful not to say who was the driver here as well as on letter so hope it still makes sense 

 

 

SUMMARY - 

 

• Moving my sister out of her flat in Southampton a PCM employee (warden type) turned up as the parties involved were moving furniture into the hire van and the registered keeper's vehicle.
•  

Tailgates were open and on the incident in question an employee (warden type) of PCM approached the "driver" & my sister (leaseholder) loading the van and car heavy furniture and after explaining it was being loaded for moving home she advised the vehicles could stay and load up and walked off. Her English was not great however, it must be said.

 

• The employee returned later on while the driver was continuing to load in the back of the van and alleged vehicle, she took a picture of the car and when asked what she was doing went back on her original statement saying now it was not between the lines either and was issuing a "ticket"

Both vehicles were stopped loading up in the same way.

 

• Their own photographic evidence actually clearly shows the box van and the alleged vehicle with its tail gate open as it was being loaded. 
•  

The attached photo also shows the van for loading at the same time and across the lines, however, it has been issued no such NTD or NTK.

Either so called "rules"  apply equally or they don’t.

 

• The vehicle was moved immediately as the employee returned as she had tried to sneak up to the vehicle and he saw her in the reflection of the building windows just as the driver was loading the vehicles up.

 

• The employee then changed their earlier statement “allowing” loading so they moved it into the roadway upon hearing this,

 

but the employee then came onto the street in the roadway which is not within the land being discussed and tried to push an NTD into their hand demanding they take it. They refused to accept it from her hand .

 

 

• So this week -NTK letter dated 13/01/202021 alleges that a PCN was affixed to the windscreen of the vehicle at 12:14 in Southbrook Rise SO15.

 

No NTD (PCN) invoice was affixed to the windscreen of the vehicle as the driver moved it into the road when realised she was trying to issue a penalty charge.

 

PCM may have issued a PCN but as no such NTD was put on the vehicle as the PCM employee of the company walked off from the driver of the vehicle on that day.

 

So I've also objected to their request for details as was made beyond the 14 day time limit as the registered keeper had no PCN affixed to their vehicle to examine.

 

Most of all I have used the other standard objections in Parking Cowboys template but after bit of googling also the case of Jopson v Homeguard (2016) as the homeowner was being assisted in loading her chattels into  van and the alleged vehicle as being moved house and that has been established as clear legitimate reasons for using a residents car park in law.

 

Have attached the pictures they sent me - have attached my initial reply letter here but will put on next post in full so it's not too much to read on this post too 

 

thanks in advance 

 

and here's the text from my first challenge letter to PCM  - red bits I'm not sure whether apply - PCM are an IAS member not POPLA 

 

============================

(removed - dx)

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

God where did you get that useless war and peace from? (now removed)

should have ignored them totally until or unless you get a letter of claim.

 

its not a penalty its a speculative invoice .

make 1000% sure pcm have your correct address either on a letter you have already written or a new one

 

they have 6 yrs

 

Can you please pop all those photos into one multipage pdf please read our upload guide carefully.

 

[lookinforinfo]

They failed under  PoFA Schedule 4  section 7 [4]

(4)The notice must be given—

(a)before the vehicle is removed from the relevant land after the end of the period of parking to which the notice relates, and

(b)while the vehicle is stationary,

[lordloz]

@dx100uk

 

As I said it's from another sites template adapted as they advise to do.

 

I haven't answered them AT ALL it's a draft which is why I asked for advice before sending - NTK only arrived friday 13.01.21

 

I just asked for some guidance as I thought this site did.

 

On 17/01/2021 at 18:14, lookinforinfo said:

They failed under  PoFA Schedule 4  section 7 [4]

(4)The notice must be given—

(a)before the vehicle is removed from the relevant land after the end of the period of parking to which the notice relates, and

(b)while the vehicle is stationary,

thanks that's very helpful

 

Loz

PDF attached as requested

 

thanks

Doc5.pdf

[FTMDave]

As your description of the incident shows, PCM are a bunch of crooks who think up any excuse to pursue motorists for money that isn't owed.

 

So think things through.  If you send them a "formal challenge", do you really think they'll accept it and stop being crooks?  Of course not, they won't even read it.

 

Sending what you have drafted is, at best, a waste of time.  At worst you could come across as someone who doesn't know the law who PCM will then be more likely to pursue.

 

Simply sit back, relax & ignore whatever tripe they send you.  But never ignore a Letter Before Claim/Letter Before Action, come back here if PCM eventually reach this stage.

[lordloz]

Thanks, 

 

To add more background, I don't make a habit of parking anywhere I want, I live in rural Devon where we don't have as much of this type of set up and had one POPLA appeal upheld when my OH overstayed in LIdl  with Parking Eye.

 

This lot aren't in BPA and all the residents there are at odds with them, they get spurious tickets themselves when parked sometimes at

4 a.m  and told me the the employee who tried to give it out was crazy and doesn't listen and did similar to him.

 

When my sister first parked agents didn't issue her a permit so she got one, when she used my parents car they got one.

So far they have ignored all letters sent to them and put in a file that's been quite a while now.

 

I'll have a think, information and advice on here can conflict with othersites so it's hard as a layman to know what to do.

 

 

[dx100uk]

2 hours ago, lordloz said:

I haven't answered them 

 

I just asked for some guidance as I thought this site did.

Brilliant i was worried there

to make sure it doesn't get used here i'm going to remove it

 

1 hour ago, lordloz said:

I'll have a think, information and advice on here can conflict with othersites so it's hard as a layman to know what to do.

 

the reason why it conflicts or differs is we didn't let people throw the kitchen sink in early, thus alerting the fleecers you are wise to their games. it plays all you cards early then they know what your witness statement will be from day one, should it ever get to court, and then you have no surprises to throw at them. because they have had upwards of a year to counter them and change signs, contracts and other important things regarding the chance of them winning.

 

the other major error with this is 9/10 on those sites you then get people behind the scenes offering to help you do defences and be your court friend for upto £400 because you've sent such twaddle.

 

play the innocent joe public card till the time comes.

 

could you please complete this:

 

Have you received a Parking Ticket? - Private Land Parking Enforcement - Consumer Action Group

[lordloz]

great thanks very much - much appreciated

 

 

[dx100uk]

just type no need to hit quote...

 

pers in your case i'd await and see if you get a letter of claim

THEN i'd reply as we do here in a snotty letter.

 

dx

 

[lordloz]

cheers 

 

p.s.

 

in questionnaire do you want me to fill in windscreen ticket part  (as they may have made one but it wasn't attached to the vehicle - ) or NTK bit only?

[dx100uk]

Just make sure we have all relevant info

 

[lordloz]

For a windscreen ticket (Notice To Driver) please answer the following questions....

 

1 The date of infringement?

12.12.20
 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?]

N

Ticket allegedly issued but not put on vehicle - moved before could affix and parking employee attempted to put into hand in roadway
 

has there been a response?

n/a
 

If you haven't appealed yet - ,.........DONT ! seek advice on your topic first.

 

have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days]

YES
 

what date is on it

Date Posted 13.01.21

Date Notice Given 15.01.21
 

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence?

Not attached - online reference only to JPEGS 
PDFs attached

 

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?]

YES
 

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances]

Not appealed yet
 

5 Who is the parking company?

Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd.
 

6. where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park?

Southbrook Rise Southampton SO15 

Residential/Commercial office car park - on a Saturday - loading vehicle with furniture/chattels, etc.

 

PCM 12_12_20.pdf

[lordloz]

UPDATE: 

I have received the Notice to Liability to Keeper letter after 56 days.

 

Now,

I know I'm ignoring them personally till letter of claim but my father said straight away to put in his name as they have had past dealings with these clowns and has a file of letters from them and ignored throughout.

 

He is happy for me to add this to his name so do I return this with his name on now OR continue to ignore?

 

Many thanks

 

LL

[dx100uk]

Who says your father is correct?

await the letter of claim

[lordloz]

Sorry you may have misunderstood me, he hasn't advised anything at all -

apart from being happy to admit being the driver rather than me. 

 

This is as they have had the same notices for their own car when my sister borrowed it parked it at her address & he has filed in the cabinet several notices from them over a couple of years now and not paid a penny farthing.

 

They (parents) said were happy to take it over from me and just put them as the driver as they'd file it with all the other rubbish they've had from PCM.

 

That's all I was asking

 

TY

[honeybee13]

We never recommend telling PPCs who the driver is, LL.

 

HB

[lookinforinfo]

Their PCN is wrong. They state that they are able to add extra charges even when they are pursuing you as the keeper. 

Could you also please post up the windscreen PCN and I don't suppose you have pictures of them trying to give you that PCN when  not on relevant  land. I know it is a bit of a long shot.

[lordloz]

thanks Honeybee, that's all I wanted to know.

 

Lookforinfo I don't have the window PCN, I moved it into street before she could put it on there and refused it when she tried to get me to take it.

 

No sadly no pics  I was on my own when she was trying to give it to me in the street/on public highway

 

thanks

 

 

[lordloz]

debt recovery letter 17032021-copy.pdf

 

My latest communication from PCM is this debt recovery referral to TRACE debt recovery. I'm assuming this is still threatening stage tactics as there is no official legal court letter to claim so am I still to ignore again.

 

Please if you can advise as I assume that is the case but would be grateful for information confirming.

 

Interestingly, I noticed that in the text which I circled in red that they have called it a Parking Ticket, and not a "Parking Charge" 

I don't know if that has any legal weight etc. as I believed only councils can issue parking tickets but thought worth mentioning

Edited March 20, 2021 by lordloz

[honeybee13]

I think it's threatening stage as you say, debt collectors can't do anything to you.

 

We don't worry about the difference between parking ticket and parking charge, it's the word 'fine' that we get exercised about.

 

Unless someone says differently, sit on your hands for now.

 

HB

[dx100uk]

On 16/02/2021 at 13:39, dx100uk said:

await if/when the letter of claim arrives

 

[brassnecked]

And deffo don't tell them who the driver was ever.

[lordloz]

thanks folks 

[lookinforinfo]

Lordloz you showed an NTK that arrived on the 15th January which was non PoFA compliant since it came later than 14 days  fter the alleged breach. Then on 16 February you said you had received an NTK after 56 days.  You are so lucky; You have 2 NTKs when most people only get one.

 

Something wrong somewhere I think.

Wonder which one will they sent if they decide to go further.

At the moment the first NTK is not PoFA compliant.

Please post up the 2nd one and see if it is not compliant either. 

[lordloz]

thanks lookinforinfo, I'll have to get the NTK out but I thought they had between 29 - 5 days anyway?

Edited April 8, 2021 by lordloz