Selfish Uncaring Doctors back on strike

[Old Cogger]

You miss the point. The strikers joined a profession and then are threatened in having somethign imposed on them thus changing their situation.

 

Not missed the point - sentiments aside == this argument is repeated every few decades - get it!

[tobyjugg2]

Not missed the point - sentiments aside == this argument is repeated every few decades - get it!

 

and if the workers dont like what they consider to be unreasonable changes to their agreed contracts, then they have the right to withdraw their labour

- get it?

 

Its all legal and legitimate despite Tory attempts to make it otherwise.

[BazzaS]

Same old argument from past Decades, in the past we chose our profession and all that went with it! if did not accept then get out as our un happiness could well inflict other un-knowingly, all hours went with our job - simple you want the monies then earn it, remember/ maybe you were not around then, BUT in 1948 Nian Bevan and the BMC finally agreed that forming the NHS that Consultants have the opportunity to NOT only work for NHS BUT take on Private work using the Facilities of the NHS Hospitals, only then did the NHS get under way, But like all apprenticeships in those days, not 2 -3 years training But 5 -8 years to be fully qualified only then reap the rewards of study etc,

 

Old Saying:- If you cannot stick the heat get out.

 

You are absolutely right.

 

However, let us look at the consequences.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/22/nhs-doctor-surgeon-junior-contract-quit-job-stress-family-children

 

It is bad enough medical students just qualifying 'not being able to stand the heat', and going to less 'hot' environments : which will deprive the NHS of the return on the training invested in them, but it will be worse when doctors nearing the end of their training leave the profession or move abroad to complete their training (as some, [many?] will never return to an environmant that has treated them so poorly, if in an environment that treats them and their juniors better .....).

 

It would be fair enough to say "they knew what they were getting into" for medical students only now starting medical school, but it is an imposed change on those already at medical school or graduated and in training schemes (it is possible to be a "junior doctor" 10-12 years after graduating!). It isn't "5-8" years : that is the lower end of the scale,a nd that is after 5 years of medical school.

It will go back to being the preserve of the rich and the elite : and will be less attractive to them due to the changes.

 

The Government has just announced new money for supporting the GP system.

Where are all these new GP's going to come from if medical school is less attractive, and junior doctors have left in droves (for other countries or other careers)

 

Be careful what you wish for. Or, in the case of the Government, they know exactly what they wish for : fragmenting the NHS to the point that they can break it up and privitise the profitable parts, leaving the non-profitable parts (and the poor and sick) to rely on charity.

[Guest]

a former 'nhs consultant/bma chief's' view re yesterday:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3560556/Naked-greed-Former-BMA-chief-explains-fellow-doctors-make-despair-plight-health-service.html

 

(Corby was there.... )

[citizenB]

 

The second factor was the introduction by the Labour Government in 2004 of the notorious GPs' contract. This had the disastrous consequence of increasing GPs' pay by a hefty sum, thereby imposing a new financial burden on the NHS, while at the same time reducing the hours they had to work.

 

So at a stroke the death knell was sounded for an effective out-of-hours and weekend service. And it has been left to Accident and Emergency Units to pick up the pieces, though they have struggled to do so, not least because of the limits on consultants and junior doctors' hours.

 

Just as damagingly, the GPs' contract has exacerbated the culture of entitlement that now holds sway among healthcare professionals. The junior doctors look with envy on the GPs being so well rewarded for less work, and want a piece of the same action.

 

Junior doctors might like to put themselves on a pedestal and play on the affection in which people hold the NHS. But with their strikes, they have forfeited their right to high public esteem. And I fear the damage they have inflicted on their profession will be permanent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3560556/Naked-greed-Former-BMA-chief-explains-fellow-doctors-make-despair-plight-health-service.html#ixzz478BsBcnl

[ericsbrother]

what kills patients is the lack of senoir staff on at weekends, having more junior doctors about just increases the death rate

[BazzaS]

what kills patients is the lack of senoir staff on at weekends, having more junior doctors about just increases the death rate

 

There are less "junior doctors about" on the weekend and overnight than 'during the day, during the week', but yes, there is less visible / accessible supervision.

 

However, it is still far from clear if this is the cause of the increased death rates seen for weekend admission.

Is it people only go in on a weekend if they are already more unwell?

 

Increasing the number of doctors (junior or senior) at weekends is a great "soundbite".

But unless you increase the working hours : you'll either need more doctors, or if using the same number of doctors you'll have to move them from working during the week to at weekends, so weekday provision will suffer.

 

Additionally, say you magically find both the staff and funding for them to employ more doctors such that weekday provision isn't affected. Great.

Except : now the problem is that all the support services (Labs, radiolog / imaging, occupational and physio therapy, pharmacy) become the rate limiting step.

 

Sort those? Great, easier to discharge the patients at weekends.

Oops : they are fit for discharge, but not well enough / would need support to be safe at home. No problem! Get district nursing and / or social services involved : except, their phones go to ansaphone noting that they re-open Monday

 

It isn't as simple as : Dr's not wanting to do weekends kill patients.

[Guest]

Read more:

a must

[think about it]

Err, sorry to burst the Daily Fail devotee's bubble but doctors don't take the Hippocratic Oath.

 

The Declaration of Geneva is used.

 

Bearing in mind that they can't even get the simple stuff right it leaves you wondering about the rest of the 'facts' they use.

[Guest]

is that it, just a comment on the 'oath'. what a trite comment.

[think about it]

Well, given that much of it is hinged on the 'fact' they've taken a Hippocratic Oath so it's reasonable to assume that the rest of it is rubbish too. Which, being in the DM, an impeccable source of balanced and well written news is highly likely.

 

https://tompride.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/mail-timeline-of-shame1.png

[labrat]

Ok personal view

 

The reason the government wants to cut weekend pay is simple

 

If they pay less at weekends then they can hire more people at less money. Hence they can have more people in without putting the actual investment in that the NHS needs

 

They're basically hoping that in order to pay off the student debt the doctors will work longer hours without complaining.

 

Its the same as the zero hour contract debacle. The government brings out complaint after complaint about them. Yet they will never remove them as if someones hours is cut to zero hours and they quit they can't claim benefits. If someones hours are cut to zero and they stay on no benefits. But people can't complain about them because their hours will be cut to zero

[Guest]

re post #61. not really, he mentions other relevant issues (which it was thought cld be subject to comment on, rather than pedantics re the 'oath'. the core being generally, which he stated, 'to do no harm'. whether it be taken from the past or the present.)

 

its a former nhs consultant/bma head. if he has been swayed by his payers (dm) for his comments, then so be it. something which can be challenged if so.

[think about it]

The funniest bit by far is the assumption of greed, if Dr's were truly greedy they'd openly push the privatisation agenda. Our household income would at least double overnight if the NHS were to be privatised but instead, the JD's are out to keep the status quo, to maintain services which are already woefully underfunded and stretched - I see it day in day out and yet we're told by Jeremy that a 7 day NHS is required. Funny I've never seen opening hours posted outside our local DGH, funny that when after a 12 hour day we lock up our practice that people's calls are automatically diverted to an out of hours service, funny that under Jeremy's watch the fact that the new contract openly discriminates against parents and women. But no, they're greedy. They don't want to work weekends and don't care about anyone but themselves.

 

And, as a former BMA head it's clear that his views no longer reflect the membership and that of current NHS consultants.

 

A hired gob, spouting good old fashioned DM anti-NHS bile to whip up the easily led into a frenzy of comedy comments.

[labrat]

I have to also say

 

It's hypocritical for hunt the **** to say Saturday is a normal working day when guess what mps don't work

[tobyjugg2]

The funniest bit by far is the assumption of greed, if Dr's were truly greedy they'd openly push the privatisation agenda. Our household income would at least double overnight if the NHS were to be privatised but instead, the JD's are out to keep the status quo, to maintain services which are already woefully underfunded and stretched - I see it day in day out and yet we're told by Jeremy that a 7 day NHS is required. Funny I've never seen opening hours posted outside our local DGH, funny that when after a 12 hour day we lock up our practice that people's calls are automatically diverted to an out of hours service, funny that under Jeremy's watch the fact that the new contract openly discriminates against parents and women. But no, they're greedy. They don't want to work weekends and don't care about anyone but themselves.

 

What an excellent post that cuts right to the core.

These JD's are threatening to leave and go private/abroad where many or most would be better off, but want to stay with, and improve the NHS.

[Old Cogger]

Large percentage of these Doctors when qualified at who!s expense? end up overseas where they can earn lot more money therefore no benefit to the NHS here = US , same as a lot of Nurses who qualify here, that is a fact as I have seen in many overseas countries, use to be Canada and the USA - more so Dubi etc and even the Far East! where 2 x paracetamols cost 50P+ says it all

[citizenB]

Would those Doctors unhappy with the current UK working conditions be any better off in Australia, New Zealand or America ?

 

 

Since 1 January 1997, overseas doctors have had access to Medicare Provider numbers restricted, with the restrictions being different for temporary and permanent residents. Generally Overseas Trained Doctors are unable to obtain a Medicare provider number unless they work in an approved District of Workforce Shortage.

 

Districts of Workforce Shortage (DWS) are areas where the general population has less access to GPs when compared to the national average. The Department uses the latest Medicare billing statistics, which account for all active Medicare billing, and Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) population to determine which areas are a DWS. This information is used to create a doctor to population ratio which is used as the basis for calculating DWS. If an area has a lower doctor population ratio (i.e less full time equivalent doctors) than the national average, the area is a DWS.

 

Overseas Trained Doctors are subject to the ten year moratorium which means they have to work in a DWS for a period of up to ten years from first registration in Australia. If an OTD becomes a Permanent Resident or Australian Citizen prior to obtaining fellowship with a Specialist college then they will be subject to further restrictions and will need to be enrolled in an approved 3GA program in order to access Medicare benefits.

 

 

http://www.bma.org.uk/developing-your-career/career-progression/working-abroad/australia

[goodatresearch]

All universities are state subsidized to a certain extent so why shouldnt nursing or doctors training be as well? Many are saying doctors shouldn't be able to go abroad without paying for their training back or until they've worked a set number of years for the NHS. Is this proposed rule going to be for anyone with a university education or just NHS staff??

 

Most doctors log a hugh number of unpaid hours and yet people are demonising them. Its wrong. A lot of people who moan about doctors earning potential are just jealous and thinking about themselves. I work weekends for minimum wage so should everyone attitude. Look at that woman on the TV moaning that the doctors had breached their duty of care because her operation had been cancelled (postponed actually dear) and how awful they all were. Anyone switching on in the middle of the interview must of thought she needed a life saving op. But oh no, it was a tonsillectomy, a very routine non urgent op. What a selfish "me me' woman.

Ignore the fact that the government want to impose an unsafe and unfair contract on them as long as im alright jack.

 

Large percentage of these Doctors when qualified at who!s expense? end up overseas where they can earn lot more money therefore no benefit to the NHS here = US , same as a lot of Nurses who qualify here, that is a fact as I have seen in many overseas countries, use to be Canada and the USA - more so Dubi etc and even the Far East! where 2 x paracetamols cost 50P+ says it all

[goodatresearch]

Would those Doctors unhappy with the current UK working conditions be any better off in Australia, New Zealand or America ?

 

 

My husband knows a lot of NHS staff who have relocated to these countries and they aren't coming back. So based n this I would say that yes they are better off.

[think about it]

Better off, in which respect?

 

Financially - yes, massively so - better pay/cheaper housing as a starter.

Professionally - yes, the same development and training is needed

Free time - yes, rotas are built on the need for a work/life balance

Family life - perhaps not, this was the only thing that kept us in the UK

[think about it]

All universities are state subsidized to a certain extent so why shouldnt nursing or doctors training be as well? Many are saying doctors shouldn't be able to go abroad without paying for their training back or until they've worked a set number of years for the NHS. Is this proposed rule going to be for anyone with a university education or just NHS staff??

 

Most doctors log a hugh number of unpaid hours and yet people are demonising them. Its wrong. A lot of people who moan about doctors earning potential are just jealous and thinking about themselves. I work weekends for minimum wage so should everyone attitude. Look at that woman on the TV moaning that the doctors had breached their duty of care because her operation had been cancelled (postponed actually dear) and how awful they all were. Anyone switching on in the middle of the interview must of thought she needed a life saving op. But oh no, it was a tonsillectomy, a very routine non urgent op. What a selfish "me me' woman.

Ignore the fact that the government want to impose an unsafe and unfair contract on them as long as im alright jack.

 

Bang on target.

[Guest]

...

Family life - perhaps not, this was the only thing that kept us in the UK

ah ok. i thought it was to stay and help improve the nhs as tobyj said above #66.

[think about it]

I was referring to our own personal circumstances, not attempting to speak for all medics like the clown in the DM. Simple really "the only thing that kept US in the UK."

[BazzaS]

Just in case people are still confused by :

 

BMA: it's not about junior docs having to work more weekends and less pay vs

 

Govt. : we need a 7-day NHS.

 

This may help :