The European Union.....In or Out?

[citizenB]

We did all right without the EU before and no one asked for a political union, trade yes but not political..

 

 

Exactly, we voted to enter into a Trading agreement.

[buckthorn]

We should regain control of our own destiny.

The EU has a lot on its plate. A massive immigration

problem, a dysfunctional euro, Greece as a failing

state, a resurgent Russia, the prospect of 75million

Turks gaining access, and terrorism in its major cities.

 

The EU will inevitable change significantly in the coming

years as it grapples with problems, while pursuing its

own ambition to create a United States of Europe. So,

if you plan to vote to remain in the EU you will definitely

not be voting for “no change”.

 

You will be voting to be dragged along in the wake of the

EU as it attempts to deal with all these problems.

 

Leaving the EU has some uncertainties, but far better to

vote leave and regain control of our own destiny.

[Consumer dude]

indeed. it is true. we did ok in the past, (unsurprising given the circumstances). prior to the ec/eu. but, things have changed. who did you vote for

 

In 1975 I wasn't old enough to vote but we were lied to then and we are being lied to now..

[Guest]

Exactly, we voted to enter into a Trading agreement.

did you? i bet noone had a thorough idea at the time. as has been said on thread, there was no ref then. you may have voted for the govt of the day, which then entered the ec at the time via an act of P. but did you know that when you voted. and then subsequent govts ratified the subsequent treaties...

[tobyjugg2]

I think the voters can strike a blow without actually leaving.

 

 

if the outcome is say... 51%-49% to stay - then the UK might possibly be able to negotiate better terms/conditions - the government might finally realise that people are unhappy.

 

I'm quite sure that type of negotiation has long passed except possibly from within the EU, certainly not some external party dictating.

 

A vote to stay is not the end of it, just as it hasn't been for Scotland.

 

A vote to leave despite almost certainly being permanent, and even if it isnt I believe it extremely unlikely there is any chance whatsoever we would regain the concessions the UK already has, let alone the more recent stuff, let alone BETTER (whatever that is) terms

BUT

That of course wont mean we have nothing to do with the EU.

Of course we will, just as other outside countries negotiate and trade with the EU, BUT it will be like a much smaller country negotiating with a country 10 times its size (which is what the EU effectively is) with the trade tariffs etc as negotiated and from OUTSIDE the EU's even more protected (from outsiders) market places, once we are gone (as already raised here ie TATA).

 

 

 

Yes there are poorer parts of the EU and richer parts, just as there is in the UK

- or even just England

- or even just London, or just Manchester

or even just the small town anyone here could be living in,

perhaps even significant differences in wealth just on the street or avenue you live on.

 

 

The 'blow' I want to strike is to get OUR politicians in there and out here, working for the good of us all, NOT just the few they seem to be looking after - in or out.

 

 

As Ford asked (and made solid points) : Unhappy about?

 

Migrants? (EU or the millions of others that will be coming as climate change accelerates, millions starve and wars spread - its happening)

Well chunks of the EU are unhappy with it too.

Do you think we would be better outside rather than working with the other EU folk who are also unhappy with that situation?

 

Protecting the EU markets and industries?

Well in my view darn right they should protect their industries and jobs - its very society - surely THAT is its main reason and justification?

Wait until we are outside that looking in.

 

Have common Laws and Common practices

Negotiated by ALL the members representatives so we ALL know where we stand?

Too right - its called business and trade terms negotiations.You even do it with your window cleaner.

Imagine you are the windows cleaner an there are 10 others to choose from all competing for that business, and you aren't a 'lodge member..

 

Sovereignty? Whatever that means

How many Tory laws and regulations have been implemented that you didn't agree with?

How many Labour laws and regulations the same?

How many Laws and regulations do you believe have been implemented the direct opposite to what you believed were UK election pledges?

Sovereignty - FOR WHO?

[Consumer dude]

Those of us of a certain age will never forget the betrayal of our country..

[Guest]

In 1975 I wasn't old enough to vote but we were lied to then and we are being lied to now..

i meant who did you vote for recently' ish, from when entitled to do so if Labour, then you were pretty much pro eu...

[Guest]

see, despite being still undecided (not for much longer ). yet from my posing posts, all i get back is 'betrayal', 'we didnt vote for this', 'unhappy', britannia rules(d) the waves (well not quite in those words ) etc, despite things to the contrary.

ie no concrete basis/defence re leave.

[fletch70]

Have never even read the Express, do you check out every thing put on the forum or is it just the people you don't agree with?

It doesn't alter the fact that the article came from the express so if you have never read it , it is fairly obvious you copied it from somewhere.

Actually I found the express article because it seemed far more eloquent and grammatically correct than your normal posting

[tobyjugg2]

We did all right without the EU before and no one asked for a political union, trade yes but not political..

 

Strange,

http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/the-house-that-thatcher-built/

 

and the ERM fiasco -

(One of the kinder reviews)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

 

which seem to claim that the (perhaps) worst bits of the EU were as supported rather than opposed by Maggie.

Very coloured opinion in the top link, but interesting.

The bottom link is very gentle on the Major government.

[tobyjugg2]

The inquiring might find this interesting

ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_255_en.pdf

 

 

but all this history apart,

what is best for us at this at moment in time and the current and likely near future.

 

Someone, anyone give me a good solid justifiable reason to vote to take a leap and leave?

 

and ensure you address the issues I raised here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?460072-The-European-Union.....In-or-Out&p=4914745&viewfull=1#post4914745

[determindator]

Have the leaflets being delivered helped anyone to make a decision.

[hightail]

what is best for us at this at moment in time and the current and likely near future.

 

Depends what you mean by near future. If the country votes to leave I think there are going to be a lot of very disappointed leave voters when not much changes for years.

[tobyjugg2]

Depends what you mean by near future. If the country votes to leave I think there are going to be a lot of very disappointed leave voters when not much changes for years.

 

From now for up to 15 years into the future at most.

Nothing is even remotely certain even that far, let alone further.

 

I dont mind dropping further into recession if in 5 years time we are out of it and better - but we haven't even really recovered from the financial crash yet as far as I can ascertain, and really cant afford more.

No one I know has recovered from the recession apart from a bit more short term work appearing for the self employed and massive queues for local supermarket jobs when they occasionally crop up).

Is that the recovery we keep being told is occurring?

- well apart from bankers refusing to give up their multi-million £ pay awards, and politicians refusing to give up their inflation busting pay awards.

[silverfox1961]

Can I ask all members to remember copyright. Should you post an article from any off forum source that you post 10-15% of the post then place a link to where you found it,#.

 

This protects you and CAG from any copyright claim and of course, if you post without a link, that could be classed as plagiarism.

 

Thanks

[honeybee13]

George Soros has warned of a drop in Sterling worse than Black Friday if the Leave vote happens.

 

Link attached, SF.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/20/brexit-would-trigger-sterling-fall-worse-than-black-wednesday

[honeybee13]

This article talks about business leaders, the Premier League and Baroness Warsi's views on Brexit.

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-idUKKCN0Z508D

[tobyjugg2]

This article talks about business leaders, the Premier League and Baroness Warsi's views on Brexit.

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-idUKKCN0Z508D

 

Love the premier league wanting to stay in

They must be frightened of having no players left

 

Thers a real in vote generator fright

Premier league drops to 4 teams as all EU players go home

.. two of the teams are still seeking managers

 

 

LOL

 

Good links HB.

[honeybee13]

Thank you.

[maroondevo52]

I just received a letter from my union the CWU saying I should vote remain

[buckthorn]

The issues surrounding how people should decide their vote are VERY complex of themselves, and have been made all the more so by little more than disgraceful rhetoric and misdirection from both sides.

 

I think that given the widespread confusion. a simpler option to help people to make their decisions is for each person to consider their own personal views of the of the people promoting each side.

 

 

I'll state the Bremain campaigners simply because there are far fewer of them to name than the Brexit campaigners, or those who appear open minded and/or undecided which seems to me includes most of the rest of the people in the thread here at CAG who are either open minded, (LOL) undecided or simply believe that remain is probably the better option from two less than ideal choices.

 

On the political side the Main Remain Politicians:

Cameron, Osborne, Mc Cluskey, Corbyn? May,

E Miliband, Rudd, Blair, Kinnock, Mandelson, Stergen more lol

And more locally and easier to see here in this thread at CAG , the main Remain proponents:

tobyjugg, old cogger, fletch, unclebulgaria,

Consider carefully and decide:

DO you, or do you NOT trust and believe in these people, what they have said, and what you believe to be their wider goals and intentions?

Edited June 21, 2016 by buckthorn
add

[unclebulgaria67]

This referendum might not settle this matter. Boris Johnson on LBC this morning says he wants a leave vote to renegotiate EU membership terms. Apparently Michael Gove also believes in renegotiation to stay in the EU. A lot of anti EU voters want out and no renegotiation.

 

To me a vote to remain settles this issue and there will be a natural renegotiation between EU states anyway at some point. The countries that use the Euro might well forge closer economic ties to strengthen the Eurozone. Those outside the Euro have various opt outs, so they are not tied into any decisions made by Eurozone countries. There will be calls made by many EU countries to strengthen border controls and be able to apply terms to rights of free movement. The EU will change and the UK has a requirement by law to hold a referendum if there is a new EU treaty or significant change to membership terms. If people vote to leave the EU, it will be a complete mess affecting the economy for years and very damaging politically, with a government in a state of shambles split by divisions.

 

People might be fed up about many issues, but to vote in a way that is likely to cause them more suffering would be an act of stupidity. It is quite possible the experts are correct and that Brexit will cause an economic earthquake, which will affect the UK for years.

[tobyjugg2]

I'll state the Bremain campaigners simply because there are far fewer of them to name than the Brexit campaigners,

LOL - absolutely Classic Brexit lack of truth or originality there buckthorn.

They do say imitation (even poor imitation) is the sincerest form of flattery

 

Now I gave a link to a list of the main REMAIN supporting businesses, business leaders and politicians buckthorn, why dont you give a link to a list (albeit far far far smaller) of Brexit supporters as I did so folk can compare for themselves?

 

Didn't think so.

Brexit would appear to be ashamed to list themselves, or maybe there simply aren't enough to bother listing.

 

Thanks for enhancing my point buckthorn. Appreciated.

 

 

 

 

This referendum might not settle this matter. Boris Johnson on LBC this morning says he wants a leave vote to renegotiate EU membership terms. Apparently Michael Gove also believes in renegotiation to stay in the EU. A lot of anti EU voters want out and no renegotiation.

 

To me a vote to remain settles this issue and there will be a natural renegotiation between EU states anyway at some point. The countries that use the Euro might well forge closer economic ties to strengthen the Eurozone. Those outside the Euro have various opt outs, so they are not tied into any decisions made by Eurozone countries. There will be calls made by many EU countries to strengthen border controls and be able to apply terms to rights of free movement. The EU will change and the UK has a requirement by law to hold a referendum if there is a new EU treaty or significant change to membership terms. If people vote to leave the EU, it will be a complete mess affecting the economy for years and very damaging politically, with a government in a state of shambles split by divisions.

 

People might be fed up about many issues, but to vote in a way that is likely to cause them more suffering would be an act of stupidity. It is quite possible the experts are correct and that Brexit will cause an economic earthquake, which will affect the UK for years.

 

Now that is simple common sense for us all to consider.

[tobyjugg2]

I just received a letter from my union the CWU saying I should vote remain

 

Did they give some solid justifications maroodevo52 or just more same old same old meaningless ra ra like all the leaflets from all of them?

[buckthorn]

Just in case the appalling campaign conducted so far by our leaders, who appear to respect the TRUTH

so much they use it sparingly, has left you without too many facts try these on for size.

 

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

 

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

 

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the

same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

 

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

 

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the

EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

 

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

 

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

 

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents, all with with

EU grants.

 

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

 

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

 

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

 

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to

Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

 

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with

EU backing.

 

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories

in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

 

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of

£80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

 

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration'

grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental

clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

 

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

 

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

 

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

 

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government,

using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be

double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

 

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due

to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even

though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

 

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

 

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland

and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc.,in the UK.

 

The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the

Netherlands too with an EU grant as they have said recently.

Have you made up your mind yet?

 

These are facts – not scaremongering untruths.