The European Union.....In or Out?

[tobyjugg2]

are spread out in the other 27 club members countries

 

and you need to consider that 27 - 1 relationship in all the aspects.

 

We get trade with 27 countries for the price and convenience of 1

 

If you are worried about import/export imbalances, then look at China - who we would need to try and trade 'more' with. {shudder}

[tobyjugg2]

and lets nail down this 'sovereignty' issue - Giving power to our 'elected officials'

 

 

Well Cameron is the PM and undisputed leader of the Conservative party - and he says 'stay in'

 

Corbyn is very disputed leader of the Labour party - and he says 'stay in'

 

The SNP supports staying in

 

The Welsh Assembly supports staying in

 

These are our elected officials who would presumably 'benefit' from that 'sovereignty' - and they say VOTE IN

[buckthorn]

We only have to look back over the last decade

to see what fools Brussels have made of us, and

we, seemed to have taken it lying down as we do.

 

When it was the Common Market it was about

good trade relations.

 

Now it is about ‘dictating’ how we live our lives, ie,

fishing and farming quotas. Illegal poaching our

fishing grounds. We put in £350 million a week

(admittedly we get some back but we cannot spend

it the way we wish, we are told were it must be spent,

our own money) and that is not enough apparently.

 

Having to rely on unknown faceless unelected idiots is bad

enough.

 

Everything about the EU is about regulation and limitations

even down to the power we used on our cookers and vacuum

cleaners which became law in July 2015.

 

More recently, it is the travesty of immigration problems, with

the stupidity of Ms Merkel letting in thousands, mostly men

(and possible terrorists). Young men fighting fit.

 

What would have happened in 1940 had our population ‘done a

runner’ and ran from the imposing threat from Germany.

 

No tobyjugg, I don’t have a problem with the coming vote. Let us

hope the British public see sense and leave this mess/sinking ship

called the EU. I hope so for our country.

[tobyjugg2]

We only have to look back over the last decade

to see what fools Brussels have made of us, and

we, seemed to have taken it lying down as we do.

I think our own government has done that

 

 

We put in £350 million a week

(admittedly we get some back but we cannot spend

it the way we wish, we are told were it must be spent,

our own money) and that is not enough apparently.

Actually, its not 'our' money its part of our actual bill (as paid by other members) that we get back yet others dont

 

 

Having to rely on unknown faceless unelected idiots is bad

enough.

Are you referring to the wealthy financiers running the Tory party at the very least, and probably most of the Labour party too.

 

 

Everything about the EU is about regulation and limitations

even down to the power we used on our cookers and vacuum

cleaners which became law in July 2015.

Do you mean negotiated agreements?

 

 

More recently, it is the travesty of immigration problems, with

the stupidity of Ms Merkel letting in thousands, mostly men

(and possible terrorists). Young men fighting fit.

Absolutely agree with you there, as do a number of the EU member states

 

 

What would have happened in 1940 had our population ‘done a

runner’ and ran from the imposing threat from Germany.

Or joined them as was a possibility?

How about later - what if the UK. Israel and France had stood up together against the US teaming up with Russia against us in the Suez Crisis?

 

 

No tobyjugg, I don’t have a problem with the coming vote. Let us

hope the British public see sense

Absolutely

[buckthorn]

“If we stay in we will just become an EU province”.

 

Can we trust what the politicians and other people are telling us?

(I don’t think so.)

 

We are told by some of the contributors to the forum and others

“that being in the EU creates trade and jobs” “and that Brexit fears

are also blamed for a rise in jobless figures”.

 

These sort of statements are being spouted daily by the ‘stay in-side’

eg scare tactics – this sort of thing was carried out prior to the

referendum on June 5th,1975, (I still have those original leaflets) and

our citizens failed to see through the mire then and must not fail this

time.

 

If you wish to let the powers of Westminster go and the UK become a

province of the EU, or a president of the EU have power over the Prime

Minister followed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer taking orders from

a new EU ‘super minister’ then the EU is on its way to becoming a single

state like the US.

 

The economy of the UK will be run by the EU and we will be forced to adopt

the euro. Also our tax system will be decided by them and we will have to

pay what they say.

 

All migrants will be treated the same and remember countries like Albania,

Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia and let’s not forget Turkey are on the waiting

list to join the Gold Star club. How much will you and I be paying out to support

these ‘poor states’?

 

Foreign policy will be decide by the EU and also control of the navy, army and

air force. The EU will control our borders and tell us who will and will not come

here.

 

So, folks, all those ‘promises’ made by Cameron prior to giving the referendum

date are not worth the paper they are written on!

 

Will the last man or women standing turn out the lights?

[buckthorn]

Now they really are scrapping the bottom of the pan.

 

Ed Milliband issues an extraordinary warning that quitting

the EU could put the planet in danger. (so it all depends

on the UK we control the weather now, what did I say they

need us more than we need them).

 

Miliband has joined forces with Environment Secretary Liz

Truss, (lol) Green Party MP Caroline Lucas (lol) and former

Lib Dem Ed Davey (lol) to claim that ‘our global habitat’ will

suffer if Britain votes to leave. (where do these people come

from) no wonder they want us to stay in they need us to save

the planet.

 

The four have signed a declaration claiming problems as diverse

as ivory poaching. (nothing to do with China then) commercial

whaling (nothing to do with Japan then), and illegal logging

could all worsen (illegal logging WWF)

 

‘Those campaigning for Britain to leave Europe cannot be trusted

on the environment,(tell me how many coal fired power stations

our Germany, China and India opening daily).

 

And then we have Heseltine calling on Tory voters to back Britain’s

EU membership because it would save Cameron from a coup. (strange

I thought we were talking about saving the planet not Cameron,

mind you if we don’t he could go the same way as the dodo).

 

Heseltine said ‘The fact that his premiership is at risk…indicates a

powerful argument for remaining in Europe. ( I think it’s a powerful

argument for pulling out).

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3568772/Leaving-EU-endanger-Earth-says-Miliband-Former-Labour-leader-issues-extraordinary-warning-global-habitat-suffer-Britain-leaves.html

Edited May 2, 2016 by buckthorn
add

[tobyjugg2]

Ed Milliband issues an extraordinary warning that quitting

the EU could put the planet in danger.

Quite true as you will realise when you get the detail of what the Americans (and Chinese) want as part of their trade deals, which a smaller UK and smaller EU would be more pressured to accept.

 

Look up leaked TTIP documents

 

One quote:

"The two sides are also at odds over US demands that would require the EU to break promises it has made on environmental protection. "

[Filcin]

Quite true as you will realise when you get the detail of what the Americans (and Chinese) want as part of their trade deals, which a smaller UK and smaller EU would be more pressured to accept.

 

Look up leaked TTIP documents

 

One quote:

"The two sides are also at odds over US demands that would require the EU to break promises it has made on environmental protection. "

 

So if the UK stays in, the US will abandon any trade deal and TTIP will be shelved.

 

Where did you get the details of what the Americans and Chinese want ?

[unclebulgaria67]

I listened to a radio debate last night about TTIP. From what i gather, whether UK is part of the EU or not, it would be affected by TTIP. What people are saying is that being part of the EU protects the UK more from TTIP rules being applied, because you have 27 countries with varying different political outlooks. After Brexit, it is more likely a Tory government would allow the free market to operate more fully, with global corporations pretty much doing what they wanted.

[tobyjugg2]

So if the UK stays in, the US will abandon any trade deal and TTIP will be shelved.

 

No, but we will be a more powerful force in opposing it - not because the UK government wants to (as Unc states), but because its the majority will of the EU

 

The EU will be smaller and less able to appose, but would possibly be thrown into a level of chaos that makes all of this uncertain.

 

If the UK leaves, the UK will undoubtedly accept the crappy US deal

a. Because its what the Tory power brokers want - corporations writing their own rules

b. Get a quick US trade deal which the US would want on their (US) terms, and the Tory outers would be able to shout - 'we have a trade deal'.

 

 

Where did you get the details of what the Americans and Chinese want ?

 

errr : google 'leaked TTIP documents' as I stated regarding the US

What you find should lead to Chinese deals

[unclebulgaria67]

What happens if the EU referendum has a low turn out and Brexit wins a very small majority e.g 50.2% out and 49.8% remain ?

 

I don't think that gives any current government a clear mandate for negotiating UK's exit from the EU. The referendum result would not be supported by a majority of MP's and Lords. Therefore they would not pass any legislation required to support Brexit. The negotiation would be dead in the water, leaving a lot of very unhappy people. David Cameron would not be able to continue and a new Tory leader would face huge difficulty. A new general election is likely to be triggered and that could change the situation, depending on the outcome.

 

This is why i think this particular referendum was a mistake. Cameron should have said he would take 5 years to negotiate a different EU from 2015-2020 and the 2020 election would partially be a referendum on the EU.

[buckthorn]

What happens if the EU referendum has a low turn out and Brexit wins a very small majority e.g 50.2% out and 49.8% remain ?

You say:-

I don't think that gives any current government a clear mandate for negotiating UK's exit from the EU. The referendum result

would not be supported by a majority of MP's and Lords. Therefore they would not pass any legislation required to support Brexit.

The negotiation would be dead in the water,

 

 

 

So in your opinion if its 50.2% of the population vote to leave the EU, and 49.8% vote to stay this would not give the

government a mandate to leave the EU.

 

Question:- So if the result was reversed 50.2% of the population vote to stay and 49.8% vote to leave, based on your

statement the government would not have a mandate to stay??

 

So in your opinion what should the government do if this was the outcome ?

 

I have always been told that members of parliament are elected to represent me, not themselves

and if they don't then I can see no point in voting in any election.

Edited May 3, 2016 by buckthorn
add

[unclebulgaria67]

Buckthorn. Referendums are pretty unusual in the UK. The outcome either way does not instruct any government or MP or Lord to implement any act of parliament that might be required.

 

I don't think a very close referendum result in favour of Brexit would lead to the UK leaving the EU. Even Boris Johnson suggested that such a result could be used to negotiate better terms and a further referendum could be held.

[buckthorn]

You say:-

Buckthorn. Referendums are pretty unusual in the UK. The outcome either way does not instruct any government or MP or Lord to implement any act of parliament that might be required.

 

I don't think a very close referendum result in favour of Brexit would lead to the UK leaving the EU. Even Boris Johnson suggested that such a result could be used to negotiate better terms and a further referendum could be held

 

You are absolutely correct even if it was 95% to leave they would not have to

implement the result, but they would have a revolution on their hand if they did

not.

 

It’s OK for a union to call a strike if they get 50% of the vote, but if 50.2% of voters,

vote to leave the EU that is not acceptable.

 

[B]It really makes me glade I live in a democracy.[/b]

Edited May 3, 2016 by buckthorn
add more

[unclebulgaria67]

We don't live in a proper democracy. We should have proportional representation. How can it be fair that UKIP gets 4 million votes, but only 1 MP ? Tories win about 330 MP's only getting 12 million votes. And the Tories cheated by breaking election spending rules.

[buckthorn]

We don't live in a proper democracy. We should have proportional representation. How can it be fair that UKIP gets 4 million votes, but only 1 MP ? Tories win about 330 MP's only getting 12 million votes. And the Tories cheated by breaking election spending rules.

 

UKIP only got one MP because the voting public in England had the frighteners put

on them, the thought of the SNP and Labour joining up together clinched the result

for Cameron.

 

Those same frighteners are put on the general in relation to the EU.

[buckthorn]

Some information that people may not know about.

 

Britain falls into step with the Euro Army.

 

Imagine some Eurocrat with his finger on the nuclear trigger. If the EU gets its way, it may soon be

a possibility. There is a saying amongst diplomats that the EU is an economic giant but a military pigmy.

 

This accusation stings the Europhiles so much that they have decided to address this and create a

European Army. As if an army of bureaucrats wasn’t bad enough, now they want to have an actual army

as well.

 

Post Lisbon, the EU has harboured fantasies of being a militarised superpower able to project its ‘values’

throughout the world. It now oversees operations with 2,800 troops deployed. Many of these missions,

conveniently, have a ‘dual purpose’. That is, thay appear to be civilian-military co-operation when in actual

fact they are heavily militarised and weaponised. They are also in some of the world’s most sensitive trouble

spots like Kosovo and Gaza.

 

British participation in an EU army was agreed at St Malo in 1998, where Tony Blair agreed in principle to

an EU army. He did this because he was trying to be seen as a ‘good European’ in light of his desire to be a

future EU president. Also, he believed that by agreeing to an EU Army, he could use that as a good will

gesture to get France to agree to sweeping CAP reform, knowing that CAP was an unpopular scheme with

the UK electorate. France (shockingly) did no such thing, but Blair had already committed.

 

The German think-tank, the EU-funded Konrad Adenauer Foundation, has argued that Germany can get its

Euro Army by a different tactic. Instead of going for a Euro Army at one fell swoop, it aims to create ‘islands

of co-operation’. That is, to persuade smaller countries in Eastern and Central Europe too co-operate with

Germany in creating smaller building blocks of a Euro Army which at a later date can be put together. Given

Germany’s economic dominance of these countries, it can easily ‘persuade ‘them to co-operate.

 

In mid-2012, the Foreign Ministers group of the Future of Europe Group produced a report. This is a group

of 11 foreign ministers from important EU states, but not the UK. The report calls for the creation of a European

Army, with a veiled threat to a UK veto in the Council. The report states it wishes to “introduce more majority

decisions in the CFSP (Common Foreign and Security Policy) sphere or at least prevent one single member state

from being able to obstruct initiatives”. Guess which member state they mean!

 

Clearly the core EU states know how unpopular a Euro Army would be in Britain, so are making moves to render

Britain’s opinion irrelevant. So much for our famed ‘influence ‘in the EU institutions.

 

In October 2013, a spokesman for the British Foreign Service told the international security journal, Courcy’s

Intelligence Brief, that “today there is in London a genuine desire and commitment to making CSDP

(Common Security and Defence Policy) as effective as possible in supporting international security and

protecting Britain’s and Europe’s borders from potential threats. We are now increasingly aware of the helpful

role the EU can play in bringing to bear the common will of 28 of the world’s most advanced economies.

” This suggests that amongst the Whitehall Mandarins there is a growing appetite to form a Euro Army.

 

The possible successor to Baroness Ashton is Polish diplomat Radek Skorski. He has said that since America

is no longer willing or interested in security crises at Europe’s borders, the EU has to militarise itself so as to

deal with these crises. He argues that the EU’s Operation Atalanta against Somali piracy saw a drop in attacks

of 70%. In actual fact, the drop was due to aggressive Russian, Chinese, Indian and American anti-piracy patrols.

They have a slightly more simple method of dealing with armed pirates, and it doesn’t involve briefing them in

detail on their human rights.

This reminds me, when I think of the young men and women who died in the British Army. One source of comfort

for the family members is that that died fighting for Queen and Country. Very few British mothers would be

comforted knowing their loved one died for Jean-Claude Juncker and the Single Market.

Edited May 3, 2016 by buckthorn
add

[tobyjugg2]

My major issue is that I don't really want either of the options being offered, both of which leave the UK populace in the hands of self interested and self serving minorities.

 

I can understand why the yanks are supporting Trump in such numbers. Like me they are TOTALLY disillusioned with ALL the political establishment.

 

 

Eddie Izzard for PM - lets have a clueless idiot in - at least he/she seems true to his/her stated convictions - now wouldn't that be novel

[silverfox1961]

Eddie Izzard for PM - lets have a clueless idiot in

 

Don't we already have them in parliament?

[tobyjugg2]

Don't we already have them in parliament?

 

Absolutely - but it was the true to stated convictions bit I thought would be novel

[buckthorn]

Some information that people may not know about.[/b]

 

Britain falls into step with the Euro Army.

 

German plot to control ‘Euro army’.

 

Reported in today’s papers:- Germany is pushing to ‘assume leadership’ of an EU army with shared headquarters and equipment, leaked official papers reveal.

 

Eurosceptics said the revelations show the UK will lose control of military planning if it stays in the EU.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/666516/Anti-Brussels-fury-Germany-secretly-plans-for-EU-army-Brexit

 

http://www.pressreader.com/uk/scottish-daily-mail/20160504/282007556594023

Edited May 4, 2016 by buckthorn
add

[tobyjugg2]

Some information that people may not know about.[/b]

 

Britain falls into step with the Euro Army.

 

German plot to control ‘Euro army’.

 

Reported in today’s papers:- Germany is pushing to ‘assume leadership’ of an EU army with shared headquarters and equipment, leaked official papers reveal.

 

Eurosceptics said the revelations show the UK will lose control of military planning if it stays in the EU.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/666516/Anti-Brussels-fury-Germany-secretly-plans-for-EU-army-Brexit

 

http://www.pressreader.com/uk/scottish-daily-mail/20160504/282007556594023

 

Theres a hell of a difference between co-operation and control.

 

There may be a euro-force like the UN peacekeeper force with troops allocated from nation states and trained to work together.

 

 

Could you really see France or the UK abdicating control of their military, let alone nuclear forces.

 

You should look up how the UN peacekeeper mechanisms work

[Old Cogger]

UKIP and a non elected leader - that is Dictatorship! he failed to get elected as MP

[Consumer dude]

I often wonder why we are having this referendum to leave the EU as the original idea was for trade only wasn't it ?. This current set up is a political ploy to which the people permission has not been sought so I reckon is illegal anyway..

[Old Cogger]

Don't we already have them in parliament?

 

NNNNNNoooooooooooooooo do not add another one!