The European Union.....In or Out?

[unclebulgaria67]

What hasn't even been mentioned but should have been is the Human Rights Act.

 

In my (very humble) opinion, if a person from overseas burgles a house and gets sentenced, the homeowner has suffered a breach of their article 8 rights. The offender (IMO) should not be able to use that aspect of the HRA to claim a right to stay in this country

 

You breach a right, you lose the equivalent.

 

Other countries manage to stay within Human Rights law and deport foreign criminals. I seem to France having a problem with one individual. They were put in front of a Judge and within a few hours they were on a plane out of the country.

 

The problems that the UK has are nothing to do with EU or ECHR. On many cases where cases have been brought before ECHR, the Judges have said that the UK parliament needs to change their legislation so it makes the position totally clear. You cannot blame human rights laws for British politicians being rubbish at passing legislation that is clear and cannot be subject to interpretation which was not intended.

[tobyjugg2]

Interesting that people want the universal human rights, but dont want to give them to 'immigrant' workers.

 

Looking at the bigger picture.

The UK leaves:

Scotland breaks from the UK and rejoins the EU

Britain loses a large chunck of it buying power

Britain loses the current Trident option as the waters will become 'Scottish - a confirmed non-nuclear power

Britain pretty much becomes the city of London.

[Tawnyowl]

Following this thread as things heat up.

Very interesting times.

Some news released a while ago.

EU referendum: June 23 date announced by David Cameron as he declares Britain will be 'stronger and safer' with EU deal not Brexit - live

Prime Minister announces EU referendum will be held on June 23 but cabinet ministers Michael Gove, John Whittingdale, Priti Patel, Theresa Villiers, Chris Grayling and Iain Duncan Smith all back Brexit - latest updates.

Wonder where Boris stands on this.In or out.

Quote-

Boris Johnson will come off the fence in the European referendum battle on Friday — and a new poll reveals he could be a game-changer in the historic vote.

 

The Mayor’s promise to say which side he is on came as an Ipsos MORI survey showed one in three people regard him as “important” to deciding whether they vote In or Out.

 

Speculation that he will put his weight behind David Cameron’s campaign to remain in a reformed EU grew after he pledged to “make everything abundantly clear by the end of the week”.

Is his view that important.

What do you think.

[fletch70]

Conniff

You say workers protection won't end if we leave because you don't believe parliament won't debate it. If that's the case I.e parliament, especially a tory one, won't debate moves that curtail workers rights, how did the qualifying period gor unfair dismissal change from one to two years. Now that is an erosion of workers rights.

 

If you follow the capitalist argument of ever increasing efficiency and profit there will come a time when laws if diminishing returns kick in and capitalism fails.

[Sparks_]

Can someone please list the pros and cons of staying in the EU and leaving it? I am totally confused!

[citizenB]

Following this thread as things heat up.

 

Wonder where Boris stands on this.In or out.

Quote-

Boris Johnson will come off the fence in the European referendum battle on Friday — and a new poll reveals he could be a game-changer in the historic vote.

 

The Mayor’s promise to say which side he is on came as an Ipsos MORI survey showed one in three people regard him as “important” to deciding whether they vote In or Out.

 

Speculation that he will put his weight behind David Cameron’s campaign to remain in a reformed EU grew after he pledged to “make everything abundantly clear by the end of the week”.

Is his view that important.

What do you think.

 

He has been rather coy hasn't he ? I guess he will weigh up what he will get out of any decision he makes - I doubt the UK citizenry will figure in his thoughts.

 

I rather suspect it will get a lot warmer as time marches on, TO

[Consumer dude]

Boris wants to be prime minister doesn't he ?

[tobyjugg2]

Dont forget that we have actually got NOTHING.

 

The EU wont be voting on these proposals until AFTER the referendum and could amend them even further from their current feeble state or even throw them all out.

 

The text.

http://www.politico.eu/article/full-text-of-deal-changing-britain-eu-membership-brexit-referendum/

 

 

Camerons speech says he believes we should change/reform it from within.

- This proves we have NO real say and no hope of treaty change.

 

Camerons speech says he believes we would be better in a reformed Europe.

- Quite possibly but this proves that isn't going to happen.

 

 

It seems clear that if we stay in Europe it will be as an increasingly marginalised member.

 

The choice seems to be leave now, and risk the break up of both the EU and the UK depending which occurs first.

or stay in the EU with less and less relevance as a marginalised member.

 

Given Merkels handling of the migrant crisis, I think a break up or major change of the EU is unavoidable.

[Tawnyowl]

Can someone please list the pros and cons of staying in the EU and leaving it? I am totally confused!

 

Hi Sparks.

I am sure many articles will be written between now and June.But to start things off one article.

I personally will be unbiased throughout.But want to know a lot more.

Perhaps the greatest uncertainty associated with leaving the EU is that no country has ever done it before, so no one can predict the exact result. Nevertheless, many have tried.

What would happen if the vote was held tomorrow?

The latest polls show public opinion over Britain's future in Europe remains on a knife-edge. An online survey from ICM says 43 per cent want to remain and 39 per cent would opt to leave, while Ipsos Mori's latest poll showed 54 per cent would vote In and 36 per cent Out.

EU referendum

EU referendum: pros and cons of Britain leaving Europe

Feb 20, 2016

A vote on the UK's membership of the European Union will be held on 23 June

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum

 

And the famous polls.The latest i could find.As David Cameron headed to Brussells.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-polls-remain-tight-as-cameron-heads-to-brussels

 

And another one.

A "poll of polls", based on the average share of the vote for In and Out in the six most recent surveys, shows the two sides are neck and neck, with 52 per cent in the "remain" camp and 48 per cent wanting to leave. This marks a one-point change since Monday in favour of staying in the EU.

 

I hope there are many others about to enlighten us more.

[citizenB]

Well I noticed that Angela Merkel was implying that they too would be thinking to apply the same formula to child benefits as the UK

 

I think she personally is worried about her position as German citizens are beginning to moan loud and clear about the amount of immigration !

[citizenB]

I think the following statement from Michael Gove, the Justice secretary says it all for me. Too many decisions are made by un elected officials.

 

For weeks now I have been wrestling with the most difficult decision of my political life. But taking difficult decisions is what politicians are paid to do. No-one is forced to stand for Parliament, no-one is compelled to become a minister.

 

If you take on those roles, which are great privileges, you also take on big responsibilities. I was encouraged to stand for Parliament by David Cameron and he has given me the opportunity to serve in what I believe is a great, reforming Government. I think he is an outstanding Prime Minister. There is, as far as I can see, only one significant issue on which we have differed. And that is the future of the UK in the European Union.

It pains me to have to disagree with the Prime Minister on any issue.

 

My instinct is to support him through good times and bad. But I cannot duck the choice which the Prime Minister has given every one of us. In a few months’ time we will all have the opportunity to decide whether Britain should stay in the European Union or leave. I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU. And if, at this moment of decision, I didn’t say what I believe I would not be true to my

convictions or my country.

 

I don’t want to take anything away from the Prime Minister’s dedicated efforts to get a better deal for Britain. He has negotiated with courage and tenacity. But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.

 

My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time. But our membership of the

European Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives.

 

Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out. We can take out our anger on elected representatives in Westminster but whoever is in Government in London cannot remove or reduce VAT, cannot support a steel plant through troubled times, cannot build the houses we need where they’re needed and cannot deport all the individuals who shouldn’t be in this country. I believe that needs to change. And I believe that both the lessons of our past and the shape of the future make the case for change compelling."

 

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-35601369

[fletch70]

My big fear is that xenophobia may take over this referendum

 

I am not all together comfortable with some of the rules that the EU come up with but we are stronger with more clout and safer as part of a larger union. We are pledged to support and protect each other

 

I think whatever happens the EU can not carry on being run by bureacrats because bureaucracy is a dangerous thing and gaining agreement from so many diverse countries all with their own political agenda may be difficult but it is a prize worth fighting for .

[determindator]

I think it will all boil down to what the city wants

 

interesting articles

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3455466/We-thrive-outside-Europe-Mail-s-City-Editor-ALEX-BRUMMER-pro-EU-explains-changed-mind.html

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2011/02/london-corporation-city

[tobyjugg2]

Well I noticed that Angela Merkel was implying that they too would be thinking to apply the same formula to child benefits as the UK

 

I think she personally is worried about her position as German citizens are beginning to moan loud and clear about the amount of immigration !

 

|Its more that the benefits 'related to the workers country' is there for everyone, not just the UK and that it is optional to apply it,

 

So Poland could choose not to pay the higher UK rate to UK workers in Poland, and just continue paying any Polish rate or lack thereof.

[tobyjugg2]

A summary

http://www.politico.eu/article/david-cameron-eu-reform-deal-scorecard-brexit-eu-referendum-agreement/

 

(and DONT forget that even these feeble proposals could be thrown out by the EU on the EU vote on it AFTER our referendum)

[Consumer dude]

Boris Johnson to campaign to leave the EU..

[Guest]

Boris Johnson to campaign to leave the EU..

[fletch70]

Just proves my point that Tories are stupid. It will scupper his chances of leadership when the country votes to stay in

[Guest]

too had thought he was (eventually) after the leadership, and given that most con mp's seem to be 'in'...or are they?

fair play though re not toeing the (party) line

[determindator]

I think it will all boil down to what the city wants

 

interesting articles

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3455466/We-thrive-outside-Europe-Mail-s-City-Editor-ALEX-BRUMMER-pro-EU-explains-changed-mind.html

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2011/02/london-corporation-city

 

We have got an 'emergency protection' for the City of London. That should help those in power and big business to make up their mind.

[Consumer dude]

 

It makes it all very entertaining..

[determindator]

As Yoda would say, entertaining it is:madgrin:

[Guest]

do or do not, dont try.

[ericsbrother]

you should keep an eye on the number of provable lies each side tells in its campaign and vote for the one that tells the least. Not sure if repeating "the unknown" counts as a lie because some of us are old enough to remember life before the EU and even the EEC. Like all political ideas there are good and bad points to it all. Hitler did legislate on noise pollution control and that legislation is still on the German statute books and in the UK emergency powers were introduced in 1798 to create an income tax and as yet it is still an emergency legislation, being extended for the Crimean War, Irish famine, WW1 etc.

[Guest]

It makes it all very entertaining..

pmq's today was. a glimpse of whats to come up to the ref'm