Spot fine of £80 for littering in a recycling point

[Conniff]

My next question would be - Will you please forward me a copy of the legislation that says my bag 'must' be put in a bin but you do not have to have to have warning signs to say this.

[CrappoMan]

...The offence is committed by the person who throws down, drops or otherwise deposits the litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it. (Environmental Protection Act 1990, Section 87)...

And I would be asking them what is the definition of 'litter'. Have a read of this: http://archive.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/local/legislation/cnea/documents/litter-refuse.pdf, specifically page 5 and the start of page 6, which says:

 

The 1990 Act does not provide a definition of litter, although the Courts have considered the definition to be wide.

but also says

 

In practice, litter is most commonly assumed to include materials, often associated with smoking, eating and drinking, that are discarded and left by members of the public otherwise than in proper receptacles; or are spilt during waste management operations. Local authorities will need to exercise a degree of judgement in deciding whether larger items and accumulations of discarded material constitute fly-tipping rather than litter – as a guideline, a single plastic sack of rubbish will usually fall outside the scope of section 87 and should be dealt with accordingly.

If a bag of rubbish (I mean actual dirty smelly rubbish) is outside the scope of Section 87, a carefully placed bag of clean folded clothes, gifted to a charity to help those less fortunate, should also fall outside the scope of Section 87.

[Bazooka Boo]

I have now had the opportunity to speak to the Community Safety Officers who issued the fixed penalty notice and I am satisfied that it was issued in accordance with the legislation.

The fixed penalty notice that you were issued with merely is an offer to you to discharge any liability to conviction for that offence by paying the fixed penalty. The legislation, Environmental Protection Act 1990, does not offer any facility for appeals to be made to the Council. Should your decision be not to take up that offer the procedure is for the Council to report the circumstances to the Procurator Fiscal at Paisley for consideration. It will then be up to the Procurator Fiscal to determine whether or not any further proceedings have to be taken.

 

That says it all to me, get them to show you where it states your 'liability' is to fund them by way of a fine for an offence?

Not only that, this is a civil and not a criminal ''offence''.

[craigieboy]

Got reply from my councillor who is still waiting on response. I contacted the charity to let them know that the council was using them as a convenient vehicle for generating revenue whilst discharging their duties for full containers in council run recycling sites. Awaiting reply from MP.

[rebel11]

Excellent, do update.

 

Got reply from my councillor who is still waiting on response. I contacted the charity to let them know that the council was using them as a convenient vehicle for generating revenue whilst discharging their duties for full containers in council run recycling sites. Awaiting reply from MP.

[Bazooka Boo]

I contacted the charity to let them know that the council was using them as a convenient vehicle for generating revenue whilst discharging their duties for full containers in council run recycling sites. Awaiting reply from MP.

 

Ha ha, brilliant.....profit before people, the council will love the bad press they will get if this gets out!

 

Loving your style!

[ericsbrother]

The EPA is EU legislation that places a burden on governments and authorities to protect the environment in various ways and effectively replaces other domestic legislation. In the original EU enactment there is nothing that places any burden upon any individual but our government has gold plated the legislation to allow councils to fine you for putting your recycling bin out on the wrong day, putting the wrong things in your dustbin (you remember the case about the council that wouldnt take a way a dead body as the bin was too heavy!) so you have been caught by you local councils interpretation of the law rather than the law itself.

Their answers to your questions are too vague to stand a chance of being considered evidential so keep piling on the pressure and I'm sure that they will cancel the FPN and give you a "next time" warning letter as they wont want to take the matter to court.

Basically you were invited to deposit GOODS there for collection and if the council have varied that invitation then surely they should tell the charity involved. I cannot see it being a great PR coup for the charity to have to pitch up to court to deny wanting people to donate to them and possibly conspiring to commit an offence

[craigieboy]

Boo, yeah it's a classic, I've no intention of paying. Have contacted my councillor and local MP and await a response. I've just emailed local newspaper as the headline 'local man fined for littering INSIDE a recycling point' is comedy gold.

 

 

Ericsobro, I contact the charity and was contacted by email by their sole worker in Scotland. They were very sympathetic and advised would contact their contractor, but I don't hold out much hope.

[king12345]

If the council was concerned about the environmental impact of bags of clothes they should have instructed their employees to stand by the bin and prevent what they call 'littering'.

Or at least place a visible notice on the clothing bins to advice people not to leave anything outside the bins if full.

As everyone pointed out, this is another money making scheme similar to parking, yellow grids, yellow lines etc.

I always suggest to avoid court at all costs, but in this case you would have a fun day listening to the council solicitor trying to convince a judge that people donating clothes to a charity should be fined in order to generate revenue.

And some people are still defending councils' actions: Pathetic!

[craigieboy]

king12345. Like most people, I recycle without reading the small print on the recycling container and assume that if it's there it's under the auspices of the council. There was stencilling on the textile container for the cancer charity and at bottom it said 'if full or damaged phone xxxxx xxxxx' but the second bit of the number was scratched out so it would have been impossible without google search to find them.

 

 

I also think that's bit off too as the onus is on the individual to notify the charity, whereas I'd think whatever arrangement the council have with the charity should include the charity taking some responsibility or the council assisting the charity in doing more than just hosting a container.

 

 

In saying that, I've contacted charity who are sympathetic (albeit it's a lone worker in Scotland) who is contacting the contractor to discuss. The fact the container itself in the few occasions I've used it over the last couple of years (and found almost full each time) was emptied within 48 hours of my fine is suspicious.

 

 

I've replied to council's knock back email based on crapoman's post on the legislation and forwarded onto to my councillor and my MP who have both already contacted the council and are awaiting a reply. Couple of local free newspapers also as being fined for littering whilst inside a recycling area I'm sure has a ring to it.

Edited October 20, 2014 by craigieboy

[king12345]

I bet a shilling that the ceo scratched the Tel number off.

After all they are on commissions / bonuses / performance related pay (which is a disgrace imo)

[craigieboy]

got this from councilor which was very fair I thought...

I have now received a reply from Democratic Services. It would seem that Community Wardens were tasked with taking observations at this site and the one located near the xxxxx shops due to the large number of items being left beside the bins, particularly at the weekends.

They state that whilst taking observations, you approached the site on foot carrying two refuse bags, went behind one of the recycling containers and correctly deposited one of the bags. You then approached the clothing bank, pulled down the hopper but did not deposit the bag, but instead placed it on the ground next to other bags located there.

You were then approached and informed of the offence which was elected to be dealt with by Fixed Penalty which was issued. Your response was that the container was full and that leaving bags beside the bin was the correct procedure and there were bags already there. The warden then checked the container and after operating the hopper several times freed the bags blocking it allowing access to the container. Democratic Services are of the opinion that the Warden acted fairly and that the Fixed Penalty was correctly issued. I also understand that xxx xxxxx will be responding to you.

Let me make several comments regarding this. First of all, if the wardens were acting absolutely fairly they should have checked if the container was full before issuing the Fixed Penalty, not afterwards. Secondly, given that they already admit to observing you deposit one bag correctly and clearly had the intention of depositing the second bag, but were apparently unable to do, a verbal warning should have sufficed not a Fixed Penalty. Thirdly, I am persuaded that these items which were clothing for a charity fall outwith the purview of Section 87 as you correctly surmise.

However, and here comes the bad news, the Council appears to be sticking to its guns on this issue. You, therefore, have a choice to make. You can pay the fixed penalty or you can await the Procurator Fiscal’s decision which you could circumvent by responding by letter to the PF on receipt of the Copy Complaint from him which could take anything up to nine months. The key feature of your defence would be that the Community Wardens acted in a manner that was disproportionate to the circumstances when it could have been equally dealt with by verbal warning. Obviously, I cannot speak for how the Procurator Fiscal would react. However, what I can say is that the PF will only go to trial is he has a better that 50% chance of success on such a minor matter. My own view is that your next e.mail to xxxx xxxx should indicate to him that you believe the Wardens acted disproportionately and that you are minded to go to trial on the issue and see how that goes.

[Conniff]

The warden then checked the container and after operating the hopper several times freed the bags blocking it allowing access to the container. Democratic Services are of the opinion that the Warden acted fairly and that the Fixed Penalty was correctly issued.

If they were acting fairly and not just after money, they would have said "ok, it was just jammed, you can put your bag in now".

 

Of course if you had picked up the bag and taken it away with you or deposited it once the shute was free, they would have had to withdraw the ticket. And surely, you haven't committed any offence until you leave the car park.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Conniff

[craigieboy]

Conniff, that's the odd thing. I hadn't technically left the car park (I don't think). They oddly never insisted on me taking the bag away with me either.

[Conniff]

A little story I remember from some time ago.

 

 

A woman in her eighties was given a ticket for litter, she was feeding the pigeons. She refused to pay and it went to court. The judge asked if there was any food left after the birds had taken their fill and the policeman said no. The judge then got really shirty with them ask why they had brought her before the court and what a waste of taxpayers money etc.

It was noted that this was the police and not some council monkey.

[king12345]

Go all the way to court.

They will look like fools.

Don't forget to submit an information access request under the freedom of information act asking how the performance related pay for ceo is applied.

You can then produce that in evidence to corroborate the fact that they don't give a proverbial about the environment, they're just after your money.

[craigieboy]

good story, as you can see from the councillors response, if get the letter from PF to say they are progressing to court, and I provide them with the details, they will hopefully laugh at the absurdity of it. Even what they have replied to the councillor shows them in a terrible light - that they issued the ticket, then after a few attempts, got container open and put bag in. I'm not a lightweight, gave it a good heave for minute or so which they acknowledge they witnessed and then fined me. If I'd just dumped without a) correctly dumping by bottles and b) flung bag over a hedge onto the railway property, I could understand. I'll see if any of my local papers respond as this is usually newsworthy in highlighting council absurdity, lack of common sense and revenue generation dressed up as civic responsibility.

[craigieboy]

Good point. I'll check with councillor also and someone earlier on this mentioned information to request. I've replied to the council co-ordinator who said they are not backing down indicating I think this is outwith the act in that it's not litter and as a single bag of clothes, it falls outwith the act. Upon his reply, I will request stuff under FOI. Need to just ensure I ask for the right stuff however.

[Bazooka Boo]

This is hilarious!

I am not laughing at you Craigeyboy, but the absurd jobsworths at the council and the serious lack of discretion used, or rather not used by the two narrow minded employees who are going to be ridiculed in the press.

 

And I thought Portsmouth City council were bad! This is up there with indicators on a submarine.... brilliant...

[ericsbrother]

The wardens got the bag into the container, thus assisting you in your desire to donate some belongings. Not a smart move as far as evidence goes.

this seems as smart as the police constabulary who having arrested someone for a crime he didnt commit (they received a phone call saying that he had a gun but he hadnt) they promply arrested him again for wasting police time!

[craigieboy]

Had contact from my MP's office who are asking if it's ok for him to raise it in the press and for MP to get a picture taken with me at the recycling point...

[Bazooka Boo]

The wardens got the bag into the container, thus assisting you in your desire to donate some belongings. Not a smart move as far as evidence goes.

 

Good point, so negated the ticket anyway! No offence committed, no evidence to prove it ever did, the press will love this....

[craigieboy]

In reading the reply to the council, they state 'they cleared the hopper of bags' but didn't explicitly say they put mine in it. I got a knock back from council there saying basically wont enter into communication with me, it's up to me to either pay fine or challenge. I replied

 

 

;

Thanks for your reply.

 

It is my opinion that the wardens acted disproportionately and I'm minded to go to trial to test the number of errors they made and how they exercised zero flexibility to a committed responsible recycler.

 

I have contacted my councillor, MP and the local press to highlight the effective entrapment of citizens by your wardens of a responsible recycler. It was nice of them however to free up the container after fining me.

[craigieboy]

Have photo opportunity with local MP at the recycling centre this Friday. He's also contacted the council so we'll see how this goes when gets in local paper and MP onside.

[Bazooka Boo]

Brilliant, be sure to add the link on here for the loal rag so we can all have a good laugh at the council's expense when it's printed!