EDF - Warrant of Execution Query

[HP Mum]

Can someone help.

EDF sent an estimated bill backdated to 2004 - estimated start and end readings.

A letter was written, by a manager, to them asking for all the info they hold on the property - names of occupants, and all actual readings for the period.

EDF replied that due to data protection act they could not divulge that info.

Another letter was written, again asking them to advise all the information they held on the property and the account was to be held in dispute until they replied.

Again EDF replied that due to data protection act they could not provide any info regarding who consumed how much electricity at the property.

Quite clearly they have no names of who has been living at the property in the last 5-6 years.

They seemingly do not have the name of the property owner or any tenants during this period. Nor do they know how much electricity has been consumed from start to finish as readings are only estimated.

It appears stalemate.

So what letter should now be written to EDF to ascertain correct consumption ?

And would the owner be held liable for the whole period ? Especially if the owner has no details of occupants in the period.

 

Help is much appreciated.

[HP Mum]

Help !!

 

Is it possible to send a SAR to EDF ?

Would this be the way to get round the data protection excuse ? Or can you only use SAR to credit card companies/banks ?

 

EDF have estimated start and end readings and are trying to hold current occupier liable for the whole period.

Surely one must be able to force EDF's hand in showing if they even attempted to read a meter ? Would the SAR work ?

 

Please someone reply

[silverfox1961]

Morning,

 

I'm sorry but I'm confused by your first post.

 

Are you the new occupant?

When did the occupancy take place? Can you prove it?

 

A SAR will get back ONLY the data of the person named on the utility agreement/application. If the property was occupied by someone else, you won't get that data.

[HP Mum]

Sorry SF !

 

I bought a derelict property 10 years ago, spent a few years renovating, putting in new pipes and dealt directly with EDF so they had my name. Then rented property out to various tenants, through agents (now out of biz), and then I became liable again in mid 08. EDF are now trying to make me liable all the way back to 04, despite property being tenanted, and they are refusing, due to data protection act, to divulge any info on the tenants or the readings. The bill presented only has estimated start reading and is only estimated throughout til now. They have never taken a reading. It appears that when tenants switched in 04 the new ones (now overseas) did not give their details to EDF. EDF only seems to have "The Customer" listed. They seem to have no record of my name being the owner as they have asked me to show them my "tenancy agreement" dating from mid 08, which obv I don't have as I'm the owner. It seems they have lost or are not divulging what info they have on the owner and the tenants. So I don't know what to do. I cannot fund 4 years worth of tenants electricity. And I don't know how to argue against this, and I am afraid that they will reply that as the owner I am liable for the tenanted period. Can I give them the last known overseas address of one tenant and let them follow it up with them? But at the same time I have no idea if that tenant still lives at the address they gave.

Am sooo stressed by this.

[silverfox1961]

thanks for that. I must confess that I'm not the most experienced in this but I have some thoughts.

When the tenants moved out in 04 they gave a final reading to EDF, the new tenants didn't register their new details so by default, it falls back on the owner.

Do you have copies of the tenancy agreements?

 

Unless you get written permission from the other tenants, you won't be able to access their data via a SAR.

 

I did read somewhere that when a utility company haven't chased for a bill then they can only claim back one years payments. If, as you think, they never read the meter, I think they would have a hard job chasing this.

 

I would contact Consumer direct and see what they can offer

[HP Mum]

Thanks SF - but EDF do not have a reading for 04 ? They only have estimated start reading. Which means the whole current bill is wrong.

 

What would edf have to provide legally via a SAR ?

[silverfox1961]

EDF would have to supply all the information they have on you dating back to when you took responsibility for the supply.

 

If they want you to pay the arrears then surely they are going to have to prove responsibility for the supply. If they won't give you the details of the alleged debt, how are you supposed to know where you stand.

As I said, this is one for Consumer direct

[HP Mum]

Well i know they must have my details as I have all the original set up docs.

I also know they must have the first tenant's details. So they know there was a break in my liability.

Are you saying that they are negligent in not providing a correct bill as it is only an estimated start date/reading and continual estimates til now ?

Would an SAR show they have not taken readings ?

Would the SAR show the first tenant's ? Or would data protection protect these tenants AND EDF from giving me this info ?

[silverfox1961]

The SAR will get you your info only, not any previous tenants. The Data Protection Act prevents them doing so.

 

If you are getting nowhere with them, a formal complaint will need to be started and either rejected by them before you can get the regulators involved.

 

Just been doing some searching and found that if it can be proved that EDF were at fault, they can only claim back 12 months of the bill.

[HP Mum]

hello again

This issue with EDF wont go away.

I have written and told them the account is in dispute and they have now in a letter received today asked for all tenants details over the period. I don't have all of them but will try to locate details off old computer discs.

BUT in the meantime they have just said they are applying to magistrates to gain access to fit a pre-payment meter !! Can they do this to the property when I have catagorically stated that the whole bill is not my responsibility and they have only provided estimated readings in their bill? Plus their first bill was Dec, backdated for 5-6 years, and all of a sudden there is a panic to get this "debt" settled...

In their last letter they have said they took readings on 2 dates - not when I was present - but in their bill they showed estimates throughout. I can not understand why they have changed their story.

Can someone advise on this please. What should I do ?

[pelham9]

Of course they CAN make an application but it would be very foolish. You are trying to sort this out with them and they are making heavy weather of it. They are using this threat to try to panic you into a false move. Keep on plugging away. I think that it is time to put in a formal complaint so that when you reach deadlock or 56days you can go to the ombudsman without more ado.

 

Should they be silly enough to put in an application you should go along to the court to defend. Make yourself known to the company's court officer and he will be forced to withdraw the application. He is expecting to take many applcations (as many as 100!) into court. The magistrate will ask whether there are any reasons that these undefended applictions should not be granted. He will say 'NO' though he is perfectly well aware that a full investigation has not been done. That is the extent of the hearing in undefended case and the magistrate will issue a default warrant - the rubber stamp warrant. The whole process for up to a hundred cases is done on 30 minutes. There is not time to hear defended cases and the company's officer is in no state to continue the case there and then.

[Sakaratte]

Looking at it the issue seems to be that information has not been passed over to them. EDF is formerly London Electric, South West Electric and South East Electric. I know from where I work that during mergers accounts and billing systems can go astray and we have been spending 2-3 years recovering lost electric and gas supplies.

 

You have had tenants in the property so any post that was sent would be lost. Normally I would suggest confirming if they have been sending post in the name of "The customer". Under the codes of practise for accuratte billing if they have not read or attempted to read the meter or produced a bill for the last 15 months, unless with prior agreement not to bill, the supplier can only backdate bills for 12 months. This is only a brief view of the billing code of practice and doesn't cover all the circumstances but most billing code write offs are due to a failiure for this reason.

 

Thed account is also in the name of the "The Customer" if EDF are going to state they cannot tell you any details due to data protection you have to ask them who they can speak to as legally anyone can open and read post in this name and obtain information. If they don't want to give you details then ask for the account start date, the date of the first bill and if correspondence has been sent to the property during the period of account. It does not have to of been sent on the current account it can of been sent on the historic account.

 

I'm not 100% on this but has a visit prior to application to the court been made to try and resolve this been made and has a human rights (hr) letter been left at site? The hr letter is a must as it notifies you of your rights.

 

If you are still not happy with the results you are getting request a formal complaint to be made and this will automatically place the account in dispute and any action they take which relates to the dispute that is counter productive to resolution i.e proceed to court and fit a prepayment meter or disconnect can be escalated to the ombudsman.

 

If they have been billing for the last 6 years and no tenancy information has been provided and supporting evidence cannot be provided for the full age of the balance you can be deemed responsible as the owner as the information has not been provided and you have not been able to provide it.

 

My recommendation is tro give them as many tenancy details as possible. If the property is currently occupied and you want to dispute the start reading then take 2 readings over 2 days and ask them to recalculate the read. You may find that if they have not read the meter this may be grossly under or over estimated.

[HP Mum]

Thank you both

S - do you work for EDF ?

 

EDF sent in the original bill and it was all estimated.

Suddenly they are saying that they took 2 readings.

 

They have now given a chart over a 4 year period, where they say they have attempted to read the meter and the reason given is "No access". On 2 occasions 4 years ago they have stated "Refused access".

Can they fabricate this information ???? How can I ensure their info is true. (I just had an instance with a gas meter reader who alleged he read the meter when he could not possibly have gained access to read it !)

 

They state that the billing code of practice does not apply; say that the supplier is completely within its rights to bill in full for any energy consumed where it can demonstrate that:

- use of supply has been made but no attempt has been made by customer to contact supplier to make payment

- the customer is willfully avoiding payment

- the customer has not co-operated with attempts to obtain meter readings or resolve asset queries required to facilitate accurate bill production.

 

I am not sure if these are actual accusations against me or just 3 possible reasons !!

 

They also quote that they have no record of any contact from me since a certain date 9 years ago ! They confirm no further contact has been received from me.

 

They have asked me to send the relevant legal docs regarding tenants. What do they mean by this ?

Do they mean Tenancy Agreements dating back 6/7 years ? OMG, don't know where to start on this.

Do they want current names and contact addresses for these tenants? What happens if the tenants live overseas and I do not have their current address ?

Is EDF going to now try to search for these old tenants, hound them and try to reclaim the £s from these old tenants ?

Or will they continue to harrass me if they can't find the old tenants ?

 

S - Are you suggesting that in the change of business ownership that EDF could have lost details from tenants ? That tenants sent info to the previous utility supplier address and that info was not forwarded on to EDF ?

 

Should I write a brief letter saying that I need time to find all the documents ? That they should not put me under such pressure.

 

Another issue is, that the amount is sooooo huge. I guess they might find me liable for some of the bill but even so it will be still very high and I am just not in the position to find such £s immediately. What does one do in such a situation ? Do EDF just cut you off ? Or are there rules against them doing this ? And can you agree a payment plan ?

 

Some urgent advice on this situation is MUCH appreciated.

[HP Mum]

S- I am not sure what you mean by this paragraph below. Please explain.

"Thed account is also in the name of the "The Customer" if EDF are going to state they cannot tell you any details due to data protection you have to ask them who they can speak to as legally anyone can open and read post in this name and obtain information. If they don't want to give you details then ask for the account start date, the date of the first bill and if correspondence has been sent to the property during the period of account. It does not have to of been sent on the current account it can of been sent on the historic account."

[Sakaratte]

I don't work for EDF but I do work for one of the other suppliers and situations like this have occurred in calls I dealt with when working with the field agents.

 

They have now given a chart over a 4 year period, where they say they have attempted to read the meter and the reason given is "No access". On 2 occasions 4 years ago they have stated "Refused access".

Can they fabricate this information ???? How can I ensure their info is true. (I just had an instance with a gas meter reader who alleged he read the meter when he could not possibly have gained access to read it !)

 

This information is supplied by the meter readers they have to give a reason as to why they could not obtain a meter reading. they are known as exceptions and there is occassions where an occupier may refuse to give access i.e. not appropriately dressed. Nothing to be worried about. as for the meter readings they could be armchair reads. Meter reader hasn't been and just stuck a reading that looks right in. I've been told of occassions where DCA's have called us from the pub and not been to the property its difficult to be certain that all jobs have been done correctly. If you have a read to date they can establish the true balance as far as the end reading goes.

 

EDF is correct in what they state about the billing code as long as they have made all reasonable attempts to read the meter and there has been no assistance with information in regards to occupancy or the occupier is trying to avoid payment they can charge for the full balance. These are not accussations again you, just possible reasons.

 

As for no record of contact, if they have migrated their account database from one system to another information can get lost. I've dealt with customer complaints along these lines before. I cannot say for certain that this is what has happened just a possibility.

 

In regards to information on tenants yes they want copies of tenancy agreements, see if they will accept a condensed version (such as a single printed document) with tenant names, start and end dates plus any reads you have. If you choose to give last known forwarding addresses that is your discression. They may request the original agreements but if you are happy to accept the debt for any gaps which you cannot produce proof of tenancy they may be happy to accept the condensed version plus if required to smooth things over offer to include a statatory declaration from the solicitors. If they have the proof of tenancy which seperates you from the debt they cannot legally chase you for their debts.

 

S - Are you suggesting that in the change of business ownership that EDF could have lost details from tenants ? That tenants sent info to the previous utility supplier address and that info was not forwarded on to EDF ?

What I'm suggesting is that when Mergers have taken place details have been transfered from one database to another. With the 'reliability' of ICT systems in the world it could of been lost in transfer and not picked up. If so its unfortunate and at this point in time pretty much unrecovarable I'm afraid.

 

See what you can get them to agree to to hold off action. I'm not aware of their collection proceedures but you do need to resolve this before they start making field visits. That is when you can start incurring costs.

 

Another issue is, that the amount is sooooo huge. I guess they might find me liable for some of the bill but even so it will be still very high and I am just not in the position to find such £s immediately. What does one do in such a situation ? Do EDF just cut you off ? Or are there rules against them doing this ? And can you agree a payment plan ?

 

Disconnection is purely circumstantial. Where there is the means to install and activate a prepayment meter they will do so. Even if there is no-one in on the day of warrant for a gas supply they can still install a prepayment meter with what is known as a blanking disk if they have the contractual agreement with National Grid or Scotia.

 

"Thed account is also in the name of the "The Customer" if EDF are going to state they cannot tell you any details due to data protection you have to ask them who they can speak to as legally anyone can open and read post in this name and obtain information. If they don't want to give you details then ask for the account start date, the date of the first bill and if correspondence has been sent to the property during the period of account. It does not have to of been sent on the current account it can of been sent on the historic account."

 

Sorry I shall clarify this. Where an account name is such as 'The Occupier' or 'New Customer' anyone can legally look at the contents of the account as long as they are responsible at the time. Information you need to ask for is the start date for the account (the first day you are being billed from), the date the account was made live (when they actually opened the account), the date the first bill was issued and when they started to send mail to the property. All this is factored into the billing code. Any post that was sent to the property does not have to of been sent on the live account, but also any historic accounts for the property which were active at any time during the billing period they are chasing (i.e opened 01/01/99 but was closed 01/01/10 to open this account). If that still doesn't make sense let me know which parts you want me to explain further

[HP Mum]

Ok.

So do you think I should write to EDF and ask for say 3 weeks to find all the agreements, from agents too if possible, and will forward all details to them as soon as....????

Will they ask to see bank statements showing £s in to relate to tenancies ? Should I offer that info ? Or is that too much info that they are not legally entitled to anyway ?

Shall I give them info showing my whereabouts during these periods ? Or again, do I not have to do this ?

Shall I write saying "Formal Complaint" which, I understand from above comment from P, gives me 56 days anyway ??

 

Would be very grateful on some advice on letter writing.

Am soooo tired today; and so stressed about this. Can't think straight today.

[HP Mum]

And re "Dear Customer". Does this mean that cos the bill was addressed to customer that the info is not covered by Data Protection ?? So does this mean they have to divulge info on the account ?

[HP Mum]

Also - do you think I should send token payment ? i am liable for at least 15-18m of bill. Would this prevent them going to magistrates quickly ?

[Surfer01]

As you should have copies of all tenancy agreements, the easiest way is to send them a copy to prove that they should have been billing the tenants. A SAR will show that you contacted them several years ago to inform them that you were the new owner however if they have lost it, do you have any proof that you contacted them at that point, i.e. a letter from them?

[hightail]

If they are holding you responsible for the period in question then they presumably claim you were/are the account holder. How can they then suggest you can't have details of readings and unpaid bills? Either you are the customer and there is no data protection issue - or you haven't been the customer for certain periods of time and you quite rightly cannot have details of someone else's account. They can't have it both ways.

[HP Mum]

They must know I am the owner as they originally fitted the pipes and meter !

But the house was rented out or empty, from finish of refurbishment.

 

Hightail - I get your point. If they are claiming I am responsible then they must provide all details on the account to me. But because I am claiming I am not responsible, they want to withhold information. Which must indicate that they know there were tenants and they do have info. I might be wrong on this. But you are right, it does imply that.

I'm so tired though that I can't think straight.

 

In terms of TAs. No I don't think I have them, at least not all. I doubt most people would keep TAs going back 7 years ! Especially if you lead a nomadic life.... I am going to have to trawl through storage records to find them, and that is going to take time - which EDF say I don't have....

[hightail]

Tenancy agreements aren't going to prove anything anyway as they won't show that your tenants took over the account. They may well state that tenants are responsible for paying utility bills but that's between you and your tenants. If none of them ever had the account put in their name then it's still your account and the energy company should furnish copies of all bills and proof of meter readings. If one of them did then it's not your account from the time someone else first took it over.

 

because I am claiming I am not responsible

This is complicating the issue. Get in touch with them and simply ask for all the details. Don't give them the excuse to quote 'data protection' at you.

[HP Mum]

Since I started looking in to this issue I now know that the first tenant in 2003 had the utilities in their name. So the account finished in my name and became the tenant's responsibility. So when they moved out, was it then their responsibility to cancel and the incoming tenants responsibility to start up ? Or would it automatically revert back to me the owner ?

[hightail]

I don't think it can automatically revert to you but I'm not sure. Years ago I had a tenant do a moonlight and the house was empty for a couple of months. Nothing reverted to my name. Got a new tenant who sent in meter readings and took on the account. Nothing was mine until I moved back into the house myself.

 

As far as I'm aware, the only thing that remains the responsibility of the owner/landlord as tenants come and go is Council Tax. Was the house ever empty for long periods of time and you ended up paying the Council Tax? If not then somebody else was paying and those official records would probably have more weight than your own tenancy agreements.

[HP Mum]

Actually at first there was no CTx as the house was empty, then I swapped it into Tenant's names for a couple years. But this became problematic for my life as I was nomadic. Most people/businesses/cards/car rental etc need proof of some form of permanent abode. It was more preferable to have something solid in my name; it made it easier for setting up bank accounts etc and also having my mail on divert to a family residence. The property is also in the cheapest uk CTx area so it was not a huge annual expense, given the benefits to the rest of my life, to keep paying the CTx...

Of course, I might regret this decision now...

Found one TA. Still looking for the rest.