Nazi comparisons - please read

[Annie71]

Scarelet pimpernel

I did not say would I said could.

Depending on who you believe some say we are on the edge of a financial precipice which could lead to complete meltdown.

A major disaster natural or otherwise could cause untold damage.

 

Part of the jewish issue was that it seems they did not integrate , lived and worked together. Yes I know there are historical reasons and it is complicated.

I think when we talk about immigration many people do not mean eu immigration but non eu frankly muslim immigration.

Beatrice not sure which country you are from and not sure what thecpenalty for homelessness is would be interesting to know how it is managed.

 

All I say is we need to make sure everyone is aware of ukips policies and where they could lead.

[porkyp1g]

Eu immigration, specifically the free use of the nhs without having to have insurance is a big problem though. It must cost us billions to treat people who come here and don't contribute to keep the system running. I know there are those who do contribute who immigrate from the eu, but there are many that don't and hospital tourism is a big problem. I don't know why for the life of me we don't have a system where you have to pay into it for a few years before you can use the nhs without your own insurance. I know if I went to Spain, Germany, France etc, I would have to have insurance to get treated, why is it not the other way around?

[Lilly_Monroe]

A 2nd tier tribunal awarded someone SG on this exact basis, The first tier tribunal gave the person WRAG as they felt the DWP's claim that the person would recieve targeted and specialist help was valid, however the 2nd tier judge disagreed stating is lots of evidence that the job centers provide generic work related activity which is non targeted and that job center staff were not medically trained and as a result he had no choice but to award SG to the claimant.

 

When I was in the WP office last week there was a group session for about 7 people all aged between 40 and late 50s I would say from the WRAG

They had all been ordered to attend:)

I heard the person taking the course what each of them wanted to achieve and do.

Did not hear all the replies, but to two of them he said 'I will not lie, at your age you do not stand a chance'!

 

I then watched two young girls about 20ish doing their online job search, commenting that there was nothing new to apply for.

So they made several cups of coffee ate the biscuits and sat and chatted.

 

All along the walls of this vast office are motivational slogans.

Think not of your past - but only of your future.

Think not what you cannot do - but what we can do for you.

 

It really is a complete and utter waste of time and money and so incredibly demoralsing.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Eu immigration, specifically the free use of the nhs without having to have insurance is a big problem though. It must cost us billions to treat people who come here and don't contribute to keep the system running. I know there are those who do contribute who immigrate from the eu, but there are many that don't and hospital tourism is a big problem. I don't know why for the life of me we don't have a system where you have to pay into it for a few years before you can use the nhs without your own insurance. I know if I went to Spain, Germany, France etc, I would have to have insurance to get treated, why is it not the other way around?

 

Actually, you could go to any EU country and be treated free of charge, to the same level as you would get in the NHS. An EHIC "lets you get state healthcare at a reduced cost or sometimes for free. It will cover you for treatment that is needed to allow you to continue your stay until your planned return. It also covers you for treatment of pre-existing medical conditions and for routine maternity care, as long as you're not going abroad to give birth" according to the NHS website.

 

EU citizens can get the same here. The scandal is where non-EU citizens are treated and costs are not recovered. Indeed, the NHS seems not to even bother trying in most cases.

[rds60h]

I had my post removed although I did not mention nazis, I did say about using a sign stating "work makes you free" but in german. There are other posts still on the thread that actually mention concentration camps although I do not recall the actual use of the word nazis anywhere in the thread. It is however often used in threads criticising people associated with groups such as the EDL, which appears to be acceptable.

[caro]

I had my post removed although I did not mention nazis, I did say about using a sign stating "work makes you free" but in german. There are other posts still on the thread that actually mention concentration camps although I do not recall the actual use of the word nazis anywhere in the thread. It is however often used in threads criticising people associated with groups such as the EDL, which appears to be acceptable.

 

I think it would be nigh on impossible to think of every variation of unacceptable words, and the site team aren't here to police people's posts. We do what we do because we want to help people and not have to waste time reading every single posts to make sure that it's acceptable. Some will inevitably be missed, but if someone reports something they find offensive we will definitely see it, and where appropriate, take action, hence this thread.

[porkyp1g]

Actually, you could go to any EU country and be treated free of charge, to the same level as you would get in the NHS. An EHIC "lets you get state healthcare at a reduced cost or sometimes for free. It will cover you for treatment that is needed to allow you to continue your stay until your planned return. It also covers you for treatment of pre-existing medical conditions and for routine maternity care, as long as you're not going abroad to give birth" according to the NHS website.

 

EU citizens can get the same here. The scandal is where non-EU citizens are treated and costs are not recovered. Indeed, the NHS seems not to even bother trying in most cases.

 

It's not really the same. You can't travel to a country, just to have treatment because you like a certain doctor or hospital. You can the other way around. In some case you need to contribute to the cost yourself, you don't the other way round.

[ScarletPimpernel]

ok I will start I respect the rules of the site, I havent written any nazi posts so you guys havent edited any of my posts, but if I did I would immediatly stop to respect the rules.

 

However I disagree with you on the propoganda.

 

Someone to find news about eg. the ATOS protests will generally have to look for it and be told about by sites like this, hwever to find anti welfare news they simply need to turn the tv on or buy any mainstream newspaper. The news machine is far from balanced.

 

I don't think it ever has been, and I certainly haven't suggested it was. But propaganda isn't just what's reported by the media - it's much more than that. However, we don't have to believe all we are told; we all make our own minds up.

 

Likewise various other subjects like how the deficit was span out of control and the reality of budget figures, one has to look for the truth whilst the spin is spoon fed to the masses.

 

So lets not pretend that the news media is all nice and balanced because it isnt, its very right wing biased.

 

I will have to disagree with that sweeping statement. You couldn't find a more left-leaning institution than the BBC, and then there are newspapers such as the Independent and Guardian that are biased toward the left.

 

In terms of your comment about obesity etc. I can easily counter that by saying many NHS gp's are wrongly blaming health problems on smoking and obesity, as a result of that the claimed NHS expenditure on those conditions is exxagerated.

 

I shall look forward to reading the clinical evidence for this. I don't recall seeing any research papers supporting your position, but I'm sure you can point me toward them.

 

I can pin the rising amount of people ill in this country on many things that right wing governemnts would even refuse to accept as reasons as its against their ideologoy.

 

Again, I look forward to seeing the clinical evidence for this.

 

Chronic under funding of health services, the simple fact is if people are not treated and diagnosed properly they wont recover properly if at all. Labour seemed to try and tackle this but ended up wasting a lot of the NHS increased budget.

 

The vast majority of people are correctly diagnosed and effectively treated (diagnosis always has to come first), and very many people subsequently make full recoveries. Some won't, of course because of the nature of their condition. Labour never had to try to tackle the problem of incorrect diagnoses and treatments, because the problem didn't exist. What they did do was to try and deal with some of the issues that have plagued the NHS for years - long waiting times, waste, poor procurement and bad management; they failed miserably because they did what they always do - throw money at the problem without any real plan.

 

 

Chronic under funding of social security, whilst most of the population seems to think this is over funded, its the other way round. Unless someone on benefits has a another bill payer to rely on then generally speaking ESA/JSA on their own will not be enough to feed someone properly, they will suffer from malnutrition which obviously will make health conditions get worse. On top of this if they choose to keep the heating off then other health conditions may arise as well.

 

I don't think the issue of social security is necessarily only one of funding; how it is applied, and how the money is used by some recipients are also problematical. You paint a picture that brings to mind Dickensian conditions, and whilst that may be true in a few cases, there were less than 6000 cases of malnutrition in the UK last year; 6000 too many, to be sure, but 1) in a population the size of the UK's it's a small number and 2) more than 6000 people receive ESA and don't have another bill-payer to support them but don't suffer malnutrition. That suggests that other factors may be in play. There is, I think, certainly an issue of poor nutrition amongst low income families, but we don't tell people how to spend the money they get (and if we did no doubt there'd be protests); people must take some responsibility for themselves. There is certainly a role for education, both in teaching people how to identify and prepare good food (at school, and perhaps in the community), and also in highlighting the dangers of poor diet and lack of exercise.

 

Poor working conditions combined with both issues above can lead to excessive stress/anxiety and its my view stress/anxiety are much bigger killers than smoking.

 

Clinical research says otherwise, but again perhaps you can point me toward a paper that supports your viewpoint.

[sadone]

I will have to disagree with that sweeping statement. You couldn't find a more left-leaning institution than the BBC

 

Really? I mean really? Have you not seen articles in the media that for some time now go on about how the BBC has lost any pretense of partiality and now is just seen as the mouthpiece of the government? Did you not see that incredibly biased John Humpreys so called documentary on welfare. One that was chock full of inaccuracies and came across as so right wing biased it would make your eyes bleed? The same one that had so many complaints leveled against it that it was officially taken to task?

 

"BBC welfare reform show breached impartiality guidelines"

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23501137

 

The BBC is far from being left wing I'm afraid.

 

However, we don't have to believe all we are told; we all make our own minds up.

 

No, but as been proven many times in the past that controlling the media goes a long way in controlling how the populace view things.

 

You paint a picture that brings to mind Dickensian conditions, and whilst that may be true in a few cases, there were less than 6000 cases of malnutrition in the UK last year; 6000 too many, to be sure, but 1) in a population the size of the UK's it's a small number and 2) more than 6000 people receive ESA and don't have another bill-payer to support them but don't suffer malnutrition. That suggests that other factors may be in play.

 

"Food poverty has reached level of public health emergency warns experts"

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/food-poverty-in-uk-has-reached-level-of-public-health-emergency-warn-experts-8981051.html

[ScarletPimpernel]

Really? I mean really? Have you not seen articles in the media that for some time now go on about how the BBC has lost any pretense of partiality and now is just seen as the mouthpiece of the government? Did you not see that incredibly biased John Humpreys so called documentary on welfare. One that was chock full of inaccuracies and came across as so right wing biased it would make your eyes bleed? The same one that had so many complaints leveled against it that it was officially taken to task?

 

"BBC welfare reform show breached impartiality guidelines"

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23501137

 

The BBC is far from being left wing I'm afraid.

 

So one programme defines the whole BBC? I think not.

 

 

 

No, but as been proven many times in the past that controlling the media goes a long way in controlling how the populace view things.

 

Indeed; but the point is that none of the media is actually controlled by the government. Some may be controlled by people who support government, but other media outlets are controlled by people who do not support the government.

 

 

 

"Food poverty has reached level of public health emergency warns experts"

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/food-poverty-in-uk-has-reached-level-of-public-health-emergency-warn-experts-8981051.html

 

An interesting, if somewhat biased article (the Independent supports the left), which confirms that the malnutrition stats I posted are correct. I don't disagree that food poverty is a problem, or that the government's policies are correct; I just don't think that lack of money is the only cause, or that giving people more money is a complete answer.

[osdset]

Mike Godwin, you were right!

[sadone]

So one programme defines the whole BBC? I think not.

 

Not just one program but many have noticed a distinct drip feed towards backing government policies since this 'lot' came to power.

 

Indeed; but the point is that none of the media is actually controlled by the government.

 

Ha, ya think?

 

An interesting, if somewhat biased article (the Independent supports the left), which confirms that the malnutrition stats I posted are correct. I don't disagree that food poverty is a problem, or that the government's policies are correct; I just don't think that lack of money is the only cause, or that giving people more money is a complete answer.

 

Well then I feel the propaganda has worked wonderfully on you then and imo you're a lost cause.

 

Oh and whilst we're on the subject of BBC bias I think you should read this little article....

 

"How the BBC betrayed the NHS: an exclusive report on two years of censorship and distortion"

 

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourbeeb/oliver-huitson/how-bbc-betrayed-nhs-exclusive-report-on-two-years-of-censorship-and-distorti

 

And

 

"Disability Campaigners Slam BBC Censorship In Letter To Lord Patten"

 

http://welfarenewsservice.com/disability-campaigners-slam-bbc-censorship-letter-lord-patten/#.UlAFHvrOnI0.twitter

[rebel11]

There is some unintentional swearing in this episodes.

 

http://www.channel5.com/shows/the-big-benefits-row-live/episodes/the-big-benefits-row-live

[dyfed]

I guess I have to take the "youre not disabled", "scrounger" and "sponger" comments and everything is fine with the world as long as I dont utter the words pimp and nazi.

[dyfed]

David Cameron is the uk tory PM.

David Cameron is the fith cousin to Queen Elizabeth 2nd.

The royal familys name before Windsor was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and later Wettin.

King Edward VIII and his wife were known sympathisers of the Nazis and their policies, a feeling shared by a large number of British aristocrats.

[unclebulgaria67]

The trouble with this type of thread is that it just encourages the issue that is a problem being discussed. At some point it will get deleted.

 

The UK is a democratic country (sort of !), so if you don't like what is happening now then you go out to vote in May 2015 and hope that any replacement government offers a policy that is more acceptable to you.

 

Politics wise it is a shame that a coalition government is allowing the poor to pay for the financial mistakes of the banks, which nearly led to a total collapse of the worlds financial system. Meanwhile some of these same bankers are now earning huge bonuses. Then there are the wealthy and businesses who deploy legal methods to avoid as much tax as possible, which denies HM treasury with up to £30 billion a year, which could make a lot of difference.

[antone]

I guess I have to take the "youre not disabled", "scrounger" and "sponger" comments and everything is fine with the world as long as I dont utter the words pimp and nazi.

 

If someone on this forum speaks to you in this way, report the post and I'll crack the offender over the head with a wet kipper.

 

Seriously, it is not permitted on this forum to call claimants "scroungers" or any variant thereof. Unfortunately, I can't control what people say outside of CAG - I have not yet been appointed Supreme Overlord. I presume the letter got lost in the post.

[antone]

The trouble with this type of thread is that it just encourages the issue that is a problem being discussed. At some point it will get deleted.

 

The UK is a democratic country (sort of !), so if you don't like what is happening now then you go out to vote in May 2015 and hope that any replacement government offers a policy that is more acceptable to you.

 

Politics wise it is a shame that a coalition government is allowing the poor to pay for the financial mistakes of the banks, which nearly led to a total collapse of the worlds financial system. Meanwhile some of these same bankers are now earning huge bonuses. Then there are the wealthy and businesses who deploy legal methods to avoid as much tax as possible, which denies HM treasury with up to £30 billion a year, which could make a lot of difference.

 

I reject your premise. I could have locked this thread as soon as I posted it, but I wanted to see what people thought of the matter. The fact that discussion has taken place is by design: it's a feature, not a bug.

[RaeUK]

With regard to the OP, in my personal view, to use these terms is to use the weakest of arguments.

[rebel11]

I recently put this to a bank, there response was 'It wasn't us gov, we didn't need to be bailed out', I like to mention the various activities they have been involved in, 'butter wouldn't melt'.

 

The trouble with this type of thread is that it just encourages the issue that is a problem being discussed. At some point it will get deleted.

 

The UK is a democratic country (sort of !), so if you don't like what is happening now then you go out to vote in May 2015 and hope that any replacement government offers a policy that is more acceptable to you.

 

Politics wise it is a shame that a coalition government is allowing the poor to pay for the financial mistakes of the banks, which nearly led to a total collapse of the worlds financial system. Meanwhile some of these same bankers are now earning huge bonuses. Then there are the wealthy and businesses who deploy legal methods to avoid as much tax as possible, which denies HM treasury with up to £30 billion a year, which could make a lot of difference.

[caro]

This thread highlights what is happening in the country as a whole, where one sector of society is being turned against another. I said it on another thread and I'll say it here - divide and rule!

[osdset]

I am 57 and I accept that I will not find work again especially with my illness.

My WP told me that she felt 'I had written myself off' - the truth is society has written me off.

I'm 58 and I won't accept that I will never find work again, I might well be deluding myself but I have to keep thinking that I still have some potential otherwise it's the rocky road to becoming a vegetable.

 

The will to keep bothering with it all gets lesser and lesser each time.

Yes it does, and that's the main problem. Medical conditions aside, what's needed is someone to give an early opportunity of work for the long term sick but only if they feel that they can cope with it, no strings attached.

 

The longer people are away from even the notion of a job, the harder it becomes to get any kind of motivation.

 

I don't subscribe to the 'left to rot/written off' mantra, that's just government/WP justification for forcing claimants into inappropriate action.

 

I would actually be insulted if someone suggested I was over the hill. I have health issues and I'm claiming ESA WRAG, fortunately I have many interests that stop me from getting too maudlin about my current lot.

 

I won't give up until I'm in the box.

[unclebulgaria67]

I recently put this to a bank, there response was 'It wasn't us gov, we didn't need to be bailed out', butter wouldn't melt.

 

But if Lloyds/HBOS and RBS were not bailed out, they would have gone bust. Because of the interconnectivety, this would have caused the rest to tumble like a row of dominos.

 

Barclays took financing from the middle east instead.

 

HSBC were more protected because their operations are more spreadout around the world, so were not as exposed.

 

There is then the point of dodgy dealings, for which many UK banks have received huge fines in the US. Libor fixing and various have caused problems for many people.

 

I am not anti-banks, having worked in financial services, but I don't think the management of most banks really accept the dire situation they have caused or they are not being allowed to, by the people who have a vested interest in them.

 

As for the thread encouraging reasonable discussion and an improvement in behaviour. It is a bit like asking posters to the Daily Mail not to repeat the same predjudices that they have for decades. People hold strident views and will express them. Just delete them, if they are against the spirit of the forum.

[rebel11]

It's about Remploy

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/ex-service-personnel-helped-back-work-3168717

[antone]

 

As for the thread encouraging reasonable discussion and an improvement in behaviour. It is a bit like asking posters to the Daily Mail not to repeat the same predjudices that they have for decades. People hold strident views and will express them. Just delete them, if they are against the spirit of the forum.

 

Oh, we will. But we'd rather not have to, you know?