My advice on dealing with JobCentre spying on our Job searching

[hennessy13]

Yes it is farcical. I once attended a course under Single Regeneration Budget funding, but almost everyone failed it. They would not fund retesting because with so many failing they decided the training company was [causing problems] us. And they were probably right. Luckily the bloke in charge of this was very sound and very much switched on. A travesty really.

 

And ironically my brother, who lived a terrace block away at the time, was not eligible for the course. The border of the SRB was the end of his street!

 

I'll post up some fraud info shortly.

[ErikaPNP]

Thread edited in accordance with forum rules

[hennessy13]

Er... thanks to Erika for clearing that up. And apologies. Had no idea such a post could harm the CAG...

 

Basically you need to read up on the rules. There are a lot of sites about it on google. And good luck dealing with the DWP.

 

Still trying to figure out how to proceed with this myself.

[jadeybags]

Er... thanks to Erika for clearing that up. And apologies. Had no idea such a post could harm the CAG...

 

Basically you need to read up on the rules. There are a lot of sites about it on google. And good luck dealing with the DWP.

 

Still trying to figure out how to proceed with this myself.

 

Good luck with it, I think you will have a job on your hands though. DWP are big guns. No body seems to be entitled to anything these days, regardless of the amount the government says we should be living on. People come on here in desperation because they haven't had a penny to live on for months due to being refused basic benefits. It used to be easier, the aim seems to be to make it as complex as possible now so that people give up.

[ErikaPNP]

Er... thanks to Erika for clearing that up. And apologies. Had no idea such a post could harm the CAG...

Basically you need to read up on the rules. There are a lot of sites about it on google. And good luck dealing with the DWP.

 

Still trying to figure out how to proceed with this myself.

 

(My emphasis).

 

Absolutely.

 

You are welcome to repost anything which may be of help to others, this is afterall why the CAG exists - we just need to be mindful of how it's worded. I'm sending you copies of your original posts by private message so that you can re-word them if you wish to repost.

[flumps1976]

JSAGs have been reprinted and they now show that Jobseekers will be require to complete certain activies by specific dates such as register with agencies, open bank accounts, update or set up a current cv. Then there are parts where it will be noted that certain job seeking activites will be required such as 3 diifferent activites each week (contact recruitment agency daily, use jobcentre plus facilities jobpoints internet or job seekers direct, use local papers, asking friends/family, applying for a certain number of jobs each week) to name but a few that I can think of after getting back from a particularily bad day at work in a jcp office.

The number of activities required will vary from customer to customer, mostly depending on the type of work that is being sought. Some jobseekers will only be required to show 1 activity and other will be required to show more.

[hennessy13]

It is funny really, we all have an entitlement to JSA because it is literally what the law says you need to live.

 

In the 80's, when there were three and a half million unemployed, they literally signed to confirm eligibility with no tests, checks, and no hoops to jump through. It is not a huge leap to suspect that all of this stuff is there simply and solely to reduce the number of claimants able to exercise their right to recieve this - their - funding. There are currently around 1.5 million signing on, despite this recession being even worse.

 

From the Serious Fraud Office website (google SFO):

 

Fraud is a type of criminal activity, defined as 'intentional deception to obtain an advantage, avoid an obligation or cause loss to another person or company.'

 

Which seems a rather disturbingly simple test. Something to think about, is all.

 

With regard to the JSAg, be very careful what you agree to. Talk to your advisors at length about what you can and cannot do. Do not ever be in a rush to do this - always take your time. Usually they will know very little of the Directives and the Regulations, which together form the framework under which they operate. Having a knowledge of these can help you no end. Make sure you do some reading on the relevent rules.

 

What you agree to at this meeting forms the terms of your contract with the jobcentre. Like any contract, it is legally binding. If you do not adhere to this contract then you will be sanctioned and lose entitlement. And that often means hunger, which is a very real punishment indeed.

 

An example would be this:

 

Searching for jobs online on Directgov, at home, is equally as valid as going in to the jobcentre to check the jobpoints. They have the same jobs on the same systems. There is no reason you should attend the jobcentre other than for appointments (which you do always need to keep).

 

This same rule applies to jobs pages in papers and periodicals - if you have net access at home, and they have a website, then you have no need to go out and buy the paper.

 

Read up on what is included in JSA payments. They cannot ask you to do anything not provided for. As an example do not travel over say 90 miles to look for work - unless you really want to - only local transport is included in JSA.

 

This could be a very funny test though; can anyone here tell me what JSA payments include? Can anyone in the jobcentre tell you?

 

There is a lot more to it. And they do not (in my experience) tell you this, but there are many negotiable things in the JSAg. These include hours available for work, type of work you are willing to do, minimum wage you will consider, and a whole lot more. You need to be sure about what you can and cannot do if you wish to challenge them on anything at all, otherwise it can get very messy for you indeed. Go wild on google. Read the rules before you do anything. You have been warned...

 

It will be very interesting to see what the new JSAg rules are. I'll have to put a fair few hours into that.

 

In my experience attending the jobcentre is a demoralising, polarising experience. You are treated like a second class citizen, spoken to with contempt and always dealt with harshly - when ironically the people doing this are taking a LOT more from the exact funding source you are trying to access. It would be fair to guess at around 6kpa per claimant and 18kpa per advisor - so, at least, three claims worth of funding for every member of staff over twelve months.

 

That makes them three whole times as bad as you. Remember that if they get you down.

 

This is a sad quirk of the British psyche in my eyes - people seem to believe you are a failure for needing governmental assistance, when really it is only governmental failure that leads to recession, social division and gross disparity in the one thing that should correlate properly in a capitalist democracy; ability should always equal success.

 

And if it doesn't, then thankfully I pay my National Insurance premium. Cashback.

 

Good luck to all.

[PriorityOne]

This is a sad quirk of the British psyche in my eyes - people seem to believe you are a failure for needing governmental assistance, when really it is only governmental failure that leads to recession, social division and gross disparity in the one thing that should correlate properly in a capitalist democracy; ability should always equal success.

 

 

That was the intention when Unemployment Benefit and Supplementary Allowance were re-named Job-Seeker's Allowance and Income Support (what income?). Note the switch in psychology in those titles because it's no coincidence. The onus was firmly shifted onto the consumer at that time and with it came a lot of media-driven assumptions about unemployment stats going down.... yeah right. ESA is the latest one to worry the Gov. because numbers are huge and have been growing for years; hence the rename from Incapacity Benefit to something people are allowed to have to support themselves towards employment (ESA).

 

The true figure of unemployment is approximated at around the 8 million mark anyway because those on Income Support are not included in the stats; neither are those on ESA.

 

The Gov. have mugged us off for years.... because they are completely cack at running the country and want to hide the true extent of the mess.

[flumps1976]

hennessy13 I too would like to see the new guidance regarding the new jsags and I work in a jcp office!

I'm not an adviser but I work as many different job roles within the office from front customer facing to behing the scenes. I don't seem to be able to stress enough that not all advisers are as bad as they are made out to be on this forum but plerase don't think me niave as I have encountered other advisers not in the office where I currently work who have thought themselves to be better than anyone in the office both customer and colleagues alike, and as for earning 18k I can only dream of that wage!

I'm not sure that many people would continue with the job I currently (for considerably less than 18k) do after being physically assaulted and held in the office at knife point. I personally take care in my job and I try my hardest to treat others how I wish to be treated myself and I strive to help people wherever possible whether it be in the office or on this forum however reading about peoples problems does worry me, but it also infuriates me being tarred with the same brush!

[Nystagmite]

I don't seem to be able to stress enough that not all advisers are as bad as they are made out to be on this forum

 

I've been signing on since January. I've had 2 advisers. Both have been lovely. With my current one, he will say hello, ask how I am (he even wished me happy birthday for next Sunday!) and does ask how my job hunting is going. I told him on Thursday that I lost my booklet (well, I put it somewhere safe and can't remember where it is now!) and was told not to worry - as I'd recorded what I've been doing in a notepad. (I had this with me and was willing to show it if requested) I was given a new diary thing and was given an appointment for something.

 

I've had one or two (like the one who warned me for not doing enough - I had my initial meeting thing 2 days before I signed on) that haven't been so nice - but it's like that anywhere you go. There will be nice people and not so nice people.

[cerberusalert]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/01/jobcentres-tricking-people-benefit-sanctions?CMP=twt_gu

[sillygirl1]

Been reading this thread with interest as I am going to 'sign on' on Monday, I've been in full employment for the last 6 years so don't know about the current situation in my local jobcentre. I was made redundant at the end of January, got HB/CT straight away after some hassle with the council about why I hadn't paid tax since November and they were going to take me to court - I explained the situation to them and they backed down when they realised I woulI dn't have any income for them to do an attachment of earnings on (their PRIME) reason for getting unpaid council tax into court....

 

I am prepared for the interview, got a list of what I have done already, names of agencies to chase etc etc etc. I did put a claim in at the same time as HB/CT but because I wasn't immediately available for work due to a 3 week holiday (1st long going away holiday in YEARS) I was refused. This time if they do try to not pay me for 6 weeks I can already prove that I have claimed before and was refused, and that I also have taken steps in that time to find work.

 

If the jobs aren't available at the end of the day the only thing the government can do is to stop cutting public sector jobs, make sure jobs created last longer than 3 months and are 'proper' jobs, not 3 month revolving contracts with a 'compulsory' week between contracts where you don't work (so the company can trip its books....) and make sure that the minimum wage stays. There are other things but I am not going to discuss them on this forum.

[hennessy13]

Some links that offer insight into the JSAg:

 

http://www.newdealscandal.co.uk/flex...ers-agreement/

 

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....php?t=3051022

 

http://www.jobseekersadvice.com/forum2/index.php

 

http://www.mediahub.co.uk/erc/ercweb...ancy/fs2d.html

 

The Jobseekers law:

 

http://www.newdealscandal.co.uk/flex...replytocom=334

 

And some light reading to make you think:

 

http://www.newdealscandal.co.uk/flex...ants-struggle/

 

Hope that helps.

[flumps1976]

Sillygirl1 having read you intend to request backdating your JSA I found this guidance for you, backdating is considered in 2 seperate parts. The first part is considered by the adviser to determine if you have been actively seeking emplotyment for the period you are requesting and the info below is about the second part the actual payments. If you satisfy anu pf those points to the latter then you will be ok and will be considered for the backdated period but if you don't then you will not receive any backdated period.

 

 

Extending the time for claiming IS and JSA

 

02372

The time for claiming IS or JSA may be extended by a period of up to

1. one month (see DMG 02374) or

2. three months (see DMG 02376)

if certain conditions are satisfied1. But the periods cannot be added together2.

 

1 reg 19(4), (5), (6) & (7), 2 R(IS) 3/01

02373

In both cases the period of extension is that falling immediately before the date of

claim. It does not necessarily run from the first day of the period claimed for1. In

appropriate circumstances a claim can be taken as including a claim for a period

starting with the earliest date which would make the claim in time2.

 

1 R(IS) 3/01; 2 R(IS) 16/04

One month extension

 

02374

The conditions are that

 

1. the claim is made late and

 

2. one or more of the circumstances specified in DMG 02375 apply and

 

3. as a result of those circumstances the claimant could not reasonably have

been expected to make the claim earlier1.

 

1 SS (C&P) Regs, reg 19(6), R(IS) 16/04

 

02375

The circumstances are1

 

1. the office where the claimant would be expected to make a claim was closed

and alternative arrangements had not been made

 

2. the claimant was unable to attend the appropriate office due to difficulties with

the normal mode of transport and there was no reasonable alternative

available

 

3. there were adverse postal conditions

 

4. the claimant was previously in receipt of another benefit, and notification of

expiry of entitlement to that benefit was not sent to the claimant before the

date on which entitlement expired

 

5. in a claim for IS or JSA the claimant had ceased to be a member of a couple

within the period of one month before the claim was made

 

6. during the period of one month before the claim was made, a close relative of

the claimant died. “Close relative” means a partner, parent, son, daughter,

brother or sister

 

7. a claim is made by one member of a joint-claim couple and the other member

has failed to attend at a time and place specified by the Secretary of State for

the purpose of claiming a joint-claim JSA

 

8. the claimant’s partner was previously in receipt of another benefit, and

notification of expiry of entitlement to that benefit was not sent to the

claimant’s partner before the date on which entitlement expired

 

9. the claimant was unable to make telephone contact with the appropriate office

because the telephone lines were busy or inoperative.

 

1 SS (C&P) Regs, reg 19(7)

Three months extension

 

02376

The conditions are that

 

1. the claim is made late and

 

2. one or more of the circumstances specified in DMG 02377 apply and

 

3. as a result of those circumstances the claimant could not reasonably be

expected to make the claim earlier1.

 

1 SS (C&P) Regs, reg 19(4), R(IS) 16/04

 

02377

The circumstances are1

 

1. the claimant has difficulty communicating because of

 

1.1 learning, language, or literacy difficulties or

 

1.2 deafness or blindness and it was not reasonably practicable for the claimant to obtain assistance

from another person to make the claim

 

2. except in the case of a claim for JSA, the claimant was ill or disabled, and it

was not reasonably practicable for the claimant to obtain assistance from

another person to make the claim

 

3. the claimant was caring for a person who was ill or disabled, and it was not

reasonably practicable to get help from another person to make the claim

 

4. the claimant was given information by an officer of the DWP which led the

claimant to believe that a claim for benefit would not succeed2

 

5. the claimant was given written advice by a solicitor or other professional

adviser, a medical practitioner, an LA, or a person working in a Citizens

Advice Bureau or a similar advice agency, which led the claimant to believe

that a claim for benefit would not succeed

 

6. the claimant or partner was given written information about income or capital

by an employer or former employer, or by a bank or building society, which

led the claimant to believe that a claim for benefit would not succeed

 

7. the claimant was required to deal with a domestic emergency and it was not

reasonably practicable to obtain assistance from another person to make the

claim

 

8. the claimant was prevented by adverse weather conditions from attending the

appropriate office.

 

1 reg 19(5); 2 R(IS) 3/01

[hennessy13]

Hi flumps,

 

Wonder if you can do me a favour?

 

Are there any official guidance notes (a handbook or something similar) for advisors conducting intitial JSAg agreements?

 

Are there any official guidance notes on the new JSAgs?

 

And if so could you get hold of them for me?

 

It would be a great help.

 

If not, thanks anyway.

[flumps1976]

As far as I am aware the guidance on the new JSAGs is still being written, as of Friday I still hadn't be made fully aware of the changes although I have seen the JSAGs and there are differences.

The guidance for advisers is held on our intranet service (not sure if that is available in the public domain though sorry).

[ErikaPNP]

Hi flumps,

 

Wonder if you can do me a favour?

 

Are there any official guidance notes (a handbook or something similar) for advisors conducting intitial JSAg agreements?

 

Are there any official guidance notes on the new JSAgs?

 

And if so could you get hold of them for me?

 

It would be a great help.

 

If not, thanks anyway.

 

 

The guidance for advisers is held on our intranet service (not sure if that is available in the public domain though sorry).

 

Most information will be available in the public domain. If it isn't here then it can be obtained by any member of the public placing a request here

 

In FOI requests, some content can be removed under specific sections of the FOI legislation, but they will tell you if there is any content removed and why that it. That was the case with the fraud manuals I obtained via an FOI request; they have sections removed because some of the examples would demonstrate how to commit fraud.

 

For this reason I don't think it would be a good idea for Flumps to obtain the information unless she is absolutely certain that the information would not be exempt under the FOI. It could have serious implications for her employment if she were to provide a member of the public with information if the information or certain sections of it are exempt for any reason.

[hennessy13]

Thanks again Erika, good job someone is switched on...

 

Yeah i was thinking if they have like a leaflet or something like that. Silly of me really.

 

Definitely do not go trawling around in computer systems, that could be career suicide

[flumps1976]

There are no leaflets about JSAgs as all legislation is available on the intranet. As much as I am willing to help anyone on this site with information I am allowed to give and am confident in giving I cannot and will not risk my job. Shoot me if you like but I actuially enjoy my job and the satisfaction from helping someone in the office is unbelievable.

[Jaybee in CF]

As the threadstarter it's disappointing how "mumsy" the thread turned but interesting how it came back. I too remember how in the early 90's you only had to turn up, sign, and go, and they weren't anal about what time of day you strolled in either.

 

I will update my opening thread accordingly, but here's an email that should allow us to kick back and make complaints,

[email protected] , and ensure you mention your office, your advisor's name, and all relevant info.

 

You WILL receive a posted reply that addresses your issues. I've used it several times and my "Advisor" has been disciplined as a result. Every complaint you make counts against them, so remember that if you are harrassed. I'm only playing hardball because of the utter hypocrisy that they want to help us find jobs. She recently asked me to apply for a Shop manager's position at 40k, knowing I had ZERO experience in the retail sector. This from a frump who has probably never worked a day outside a government office in her life...

[Jaybee in CF]

For example, I've never been ill on a signing day thankfully, but is having a cold seen as a legitimate reason for not attending on the day?

[flumps1976]

You can declare a maximum of two periods of sickness lasting a maximum of 14 calender days in any 12 month Job Seeking Period.

You can declare a period of sickness if you really want to, but consider that you may be able to attend the office as normal as would you really want to use a period of sickenss for a cold unless it is a heavy cold of course.

[Jaybee in CF]

Cheers Flumps!

[Jaybee in CF]

Hi all,Got a letter informing me about a deduction for an earlier overpayment (that I went to tribunal about but lost). The deduction is quite steep and I would rather pay it back at the smallest rate possible. There's a phone number asking me to call, but they'll surely want a list of acceptable reasons.What sort of budget reasons could I give?Ta,Jaybee

[watchinginvestigation2011]

Depends on wether you have dependants etc.....There are no get arounds list this and it will reduce it, you need to honestly list your outgoings etc....and come to agreement. There is prob a max they can take any way for instance out of single persons claim or one with dependants claim etc.....

 

Others may be able to say what that is but I dont know sorry xx