Nat West business OD & Shoosmiths - HELP

[paulwlton]

I have rejigged the letter, I hope it is ok??

Further advice required. Please.

 

Im sending in a CCA on the "new" litigated account

but Can I also send in a SAR on the litigated account?

 

 

I never set it up - not in my name or the Ltd Company name

- so they can't quote data protection crap at me as they did previously on my SAR for the Ltd Co.

 

Send cca and sar.

[HP Mum]

thanks for your reply P.

I will sort this anon.

I am very intrigued as to how they will reply.... ;-)

 

 

As S has advised they act for NW, can I thus send the sar to them? Or absolutely should go to NW??

[AndyOrch]

 

 

As S has advised they act for NW, can I thus send the sar to them? Or absolutely should go to NW??

 

Nat West

[HP Mum]

thanks.

 

 

Does anyone know the new correct address for CMS?

I was dealing with NW in Telford. But I just had a letter from Rotherham.

Would it be best to send to that address in Rotherham?

Or to a head office somewhere else?

[AndyOrch]

UPDATED AND CHECKED NOVEMBER 2012 Natwest SAR's

 

Joyce E Tudor Manager Subject access request Team

Ground Floor

Business House B

PO Box 1000

Edinburgh

EH12 1HQ

 

Telephone 0131 626 1669

Fax 0131 626 3051

 

Opening hours 9.00-5.00 Monday-Friday

[HP Mum]

thank you

[tedney]

UPDATED AND CHECKED NOVEMBER 2012 Natwest SAR's

 

Joyce E Tudor Manager Subject access request Team

Ground Floor

Business House B

PO Box 1000

Edinburgh

EH12 1HQ

 

Telephone 0131 626 1669

Fax 0131 626 3051

 

Opening hours 9.00-5.00 Monday-Friday

 

 

This is correct also as at August 2014.

 

Another name for Manager at that time: Linda Allan.

 

Also they passed on to CMS who responded with "Personal Information" as referred to by Edinburgh office.

 

The CMS "DSAR Team" had an address of NW Bank Plc, Credit Management Services, PO Box 16538, 7 Brindley Place B2 2AZ, I think this is Birmingham. That was correct as at January 2015.

 

As andyorch suggested, I would send to Edinburgh, and leave it to them to collate info from CMS.

JMHO

Good Luck

t

[HP Mum]

Thank you T

[HP Mum]

Well have had some form of a reply from Shoos.

 

 

They have completely ignored - so far - my cca request and questions regarding the validity of their claim and how the account was set up.

 

 

Instead they have focused solely on replying to my complaint about them asking me to increase monthly payments....

 

 

They split hairs - they say "it is a "regulatory expectation" that they carry out regular reviews of my financial circumstances to assess the affordability of any arrangement in place."

They then state that the purpose of sending me I&E forms was not to ask me to increase my current payments but to ensure the payments remain affordable to me!!

Because of this "They do not uphold my complaint in regards to them requesting that I increase my payments."

They also "hope I understand why my complaint has not been upheld"...

 

 

So writing 4 letters in 3 months to ensure my payments remain affordable to me and nothing to do with harassment and trying to get me to panic and offer more money per month???!!! They are "having a laugh" right !! Trying to dig themselves out a corner...

 

 

BUT - they have not addressed any of my questions about the account.

Can they ignore a cca request?

[Old Cogger]

shooooos bull****, these boys never left infantcy

[HP Mum]

Just wondering if I should send them a "gentle" reminder to answerer my cca request and all other questions?

[HP Mum]

Still no response to my CCA Request

 

 

What should I do?

[tedney]

Still no response to my CCA Request

 

 

What should I do?

 

I would just reiterate that they have not responded to you CCA request. Have they cashed the PO? I think there is a telephone number you can call, part of The Post Office, which can confirm if the PO has been cashed, that is assuming you have the PO references? I will see if I can find the number.

t

[tedney]

Have they cashed the PO? I think there is a telephone number you can call. I will see if I can find the number.

t

 

Have a look here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?112484-How-do-you-check-if-a-postal-order-has-been-cashed-or-not

[HP Mum]

Thanks Ted will see what I can find out.

 

 

In the meantime - I thought they were under legal obligation to reply to a cca?

As they haven't - what do I do?

I can send them a reminder letter (have drafted one) but not sure it will do any good.

[HP Mum]

I had a quick look in the library and at the FCA Handbook.

I can see reasons in the FCA handbook, which I will copy below, why Shoo / NW can't enforce an agreement without complying with my request for cca.

But I can't find anything which advises what happens when a CCJ has already been given on the account ? Anyone?

And so far I can't locate a non-compliance letter. Can someone please point me in the right direction for a cca non-compliance letter.

 

 

FCA - failure to comply notes:

1) Failure to comply with the provisions means that the agreement becomes unenforceable while the failure to comply persists, and the courts have no discretion to allow enforcement.

(2) In such cases, a firm should in no way, either by act or omission, mislead a customer as to the enforceability of the agreement.

(3) In particular, a firms hould not in such cases either threaten court action or other enforcement of the debt or imply that the debt is enforceable when it is not.

(4) The firm should, in any request for payment or communication relating to a payment (other than a statement issued in accordance with the CCA or regulations made under it which does not constitute or contain a request for payment) in such cases, make clear to the customer that although the debt remains outstanding it is unenforceable.

(8) However, where a firm is aware that an agreement is unenforceable because of non-compliance with an information request under section 77, 78 or 79 of the CCA a firm should make it clear when communicating to a customer about a debt that the debt is in fact unenforceable. Failure to do so, in that case, would in the FCA’s view unfairly mislead the customer by omission. Any communication that implies expressly or otherwise that a debt is enforceable when it is known that it is not, would be misleading. One way to avoid this would be for the firm to explain to the customer the full meaning of 'unenforceable'

[AndyOrch]

The problem you face HP Mum is that a judgment supersedes an agreement and therefore ..technically a CCA section 77/78 request is not applicable.Their choice if they wish to comply.

[HP Mum]

Thanks - So I should write a letter asking for a reply to the cca and if not why not kind of letter? And if they choose not to reply soon to then send the SAR for this specific account to NW. I haven't done that yet cos I was waiting for the cca reply

[dx100uk]

why?

 

 

they have a judgement on this debt?

without trawling through 167 posts

when was this?

[tedney]

The problem you face HP Mum is that a judgment supersedes an agreement and therefore ..technically a CCA section 77/78 request is not applicable.Their choice if they wish to comply.

 

Perhaps they know it should have been unenforeable, as in para 8 of post 165? If they now respond to a CCA and it does not comply with the regs, what then? Can the defendant go back to the court? Just Asking! t

[HP Mum]

Dx - they got the ccj before I found CAG ! Unfortunately. (mid 08)

 

 

It is only because I have trawled this site over the years and had help that I came to realise what NW/Shoos had done.

A lot of time has passed and I should have dealt with it years ago but I was always worried about what I was getting into cos of the amount of the debt.

Now the bulk of the debt is sb I feel a bit more confident about confronting them and getting to the bottom of it.

 

 

As Ted says above - the fact that they have not answered my questions about how the account was set up nor replied to cca request speaks volumes on how they must know the account is unenforceable.... but they are now hiding behind the ccj.

 

 

My plan is to send in a reminder letter - is there a "non-compliance" template that I can edit ?

 

 

And separately send a sar to NW.

 

 

I want to get the steps right...

 

 

Ted's question is also my question - can I go back to court?

Can I apply to the courts that I have only just realised ie: they have a ccj on an account that is not mine. I was ignorant at the time of the ccj being granted but whilst going through files - the catalyst for my file search was Shoos letters for increased payments - I realised that the account litigated on was not even mine...

What on earth would I say ? would it be a new claim? or a return to a defence of old claim?

Also if ccj was from 08 would sb stand in their favour? Or could I argue I only just realised and quote some law that sb isn't applicable (like the Kleinwort Benson used in reclaiming CI)

[AndyOrch]

As the judgment is is over 6 years old you may struggle to challenge it now...I assume its fell off the register and have you ever made payment towards the Judgement?

 

You can chase the CCA but as stated they are not compelled to comply....but they might.

 

Andy

[HP Mum]

the ccj is off the cra. But I must pay nominal monthly payments to prevent them trying to get a CO again.

At the beginning of this thread I advised that shoos failed to cash a cheque on purpose to try to get a charging order. They failed in court and judge determined as long as I make the monthly payments they can not get a CO. I then switched to bank transfer to prevent them using said tactics again.

 

So on the one hand I want to prevent a CO and so must pay. Yet the account and ccj is not valid and I want to prove it and stop paying.

 

Shoo replied to my recent letter demanding info on the account (they only addressed my complaints about request to increase payments) - so by default they must acknowledge receipt of the cca and £1 po which was also enclosed, they have not returned the £1, they have not replied to say they can’t respond and they have not replied to say they have passed it on to NW….

I have found this non-compliance example below – but not sure about litigation threat? Would probably need to reword along the lines of I will refer the case back to court for re-examination….

“In my letter dated x - which was delivered via Recorded Delivery to your offices on x delivery date - I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the account XXXXXXXX account under section 77(1) of the CCA 74 In addition a statement of my account should have been sent along with any other document mentioned in the credit agreement.

 

The Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for this request to be carried out before your company enter into a default situation. If the request is not satisfied after a further 30 calendar days, your company will have committed an offence. These time limits expired on XXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX respectively.

 

As you are no doubt aware subsection (6) states:

If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

 

(a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Failure to respond favourably to this letter within seven (7) days of receipt will result in litigation being commenced against your company, without further notice, to enforce my request for the signed executed credit agreement named above.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter”

Of course - if this CCA is going to go nowhere due to the ccj and potentially being sb now - perhaps everyone will now best suggest simply sending in a revised SAR for this account ????

 

Previously I sent NW the SAR for the correct Ltd Co account number and they refused as it is Ltd Co. I wasn't clever enough then to realise I asked for details for the wrong account!!

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Difficult position HP Mum...yes all the above is true and correct legislation but they have already enforced it..therefore not applicable...as stated the Judgment supersedes any agreement.

 

Without reading the full thread are you saying that the debt/agreement enforced is not yours ..?

Or are you just wanting to test the validity of the agreement and/or whether they actually have one?

 

Andy

[HP Mum]

Andy:

In brief - NW transferred an unsecured od from local branch to CMS Telford (now Rotherham), they closed the current account and transferred it into a managed loan with a new sort code and new account number - without my knowledge, consent or signature - and then proceeded to litigate successfully on this new account.

To get ccj they quoted personal guarantees (£15k, superseded by one of 20k) I had given on the Ltd Co account - but used guarantee against this new account.

They also only litigated on a tiny amount (£6.5k) compared to the full amount Ltd Co owed (£26.5k).

 

 

So -

1. they litigated on an account number which was not mine

2. the personal guarantee did not relate to the account number

3. the litigated amount that was not the full amount owed by the Ltd co

4. they never litigated against the Ltd Co or remaining £20k. (8yrs later = SB now)

5. they continued to send interest accruing statements 1/4ly on the Ltd Co account

 

 

SO - account / debt enforced is not mine. And I want to now bring them to strict proof there of...

 

 

Does that make sense?