Nat West business OD & Shoosmiths - HELP

[andy262000]

Subbing. I can relate to a lot of this, all the best HP Mum!

[hellhasnofury]

Hi

 

I have found myself in a similar position got a charging order in Feb this year from the same duo. I found the whole experience horrendous as the judge very very biased to the other side. I got stung for the default balance, even though I had paid some of it of with monthly payments and ppi interest. Lost my fight for the cause them

 

Have a complaint going through now telford regarding ppi that they have failed to repay me back and knowing this still took me to court. Only been going on for five years now The natwest bank are disgusting and get away with everything

[Mike_hawk]

Hi HP

 

Read your post on the other thread, had a brief read of your woes on here.... hopefully this post will bump yours to anyone still taking an interest.

 

One thing which does spring to mind; Do Shoosmiths and the business present you with reconciling statements for credits or do the monies paid not show on the data which Ratsnest send you?

[HP Mum]

Hi Mike

 

I get NO statements from Shoosmiths.

The first contact I have had from them in years is simply cos I was late with a nominal monthly payment.

 

The statements I get from NW are interest statement charges only. There is NO reference to any payment made to Shoosmiths.

 

There seems to be NO connection between what I pay Shoosmiths and NW.

 

It almost seems as if NW is unaware of the CCJ and payments to Shoosmiths.

Which can't be right.

 

The CCJ was 5 years ago.

Since then I have had no balance statement from NW. Just Interest Charges statement, apx £5-600/quarter.

 

What do you think I should do ?

[paulwlton]

What did the SAR reveal?

[HP Mum]

NW returned the PO to me. I just found their letter

I should have made it out to them but had left it blank. I guess I should go back to postoffice and get them to change it.

 

However NW did send a letter refusing to give data on a Ltd Co to me - under Data Protection Act 98. Even though they know it was just me and I am the one personally guaranteeing an O/D. And the only person with a ccj regarding the Co, the only person receiving NW statements.

They asked me to be specific and list the info I require and provide it to the team that deals with the day to day running of my biz acc. They then listed this "team" address as Telford !!

They advise they enclose personal details under references which mean nothing to me - long digits.

 

I need to sort through all my papers.

I know I took an initial unsecured O/D 15yrs ago and then I increased it at a later date. NW seem to have presented both Personal Agreements as separate entities, ie adding them together. The 2nd one should have erased the 1st one. I mean if a customer takes an O/D for £1k and then later asks to increase it to £3k the sum total of the O/D should be £3k - not £1k+£3k. I am not sure what NW have done. My O/D limit was X, yet 4 years later NW advises the Acc balance was almost double !! Many more years have passed....

 

NW have noted a "Guarantee Call Up, served my £X liimit"

NW remark "Unsecured Deal Made". Ie token monthly payments

4 years later NW show a hugely inflated balance

NW remark that Company is Ltd Co and they can only supply personal info

 

The date of Transfer to CMS was in 04. 9 years ago !

 

I will trawl notes tomorrow and see if I can make head and tail of everything

 

Thank You for replying. Xx

 

Shoosmiths attributed my £10 PO to my debt ! Shoosmiths said NW had advised them they had complied as far as necessary with my SAR to them. They advised if I wanted copies of Docs they hold I should clearly identify the docs I am looking for.

I don't know what Docs I would need to look for !!! Is there something specific I should be asking them to provide ?

 

It would be good to have clarity on this situation.

I mean is it really possible for a Bank to set a limit of borrowing, to know - subsequent to business collapse - that it is impossible for the customer to repay that amount, yet to add punitive charges that double, triple, quadruple the original borrowing limit ?? I thought a limit meant Limit. I need to resolve this.

Thanks for your support PaulW. Be good to hear from experienced NW battlers and to find out how to navigate this issue.

 

NW split the guarantees. I have found the paperwork trail.

Nw sent 2 Formal Demands on same date - one letter referring to the 1st guarantee taken out, but interesting stating my guarantee liability was 60% less. The 2nd letter referred to the year I had increased my O/D guarantee and stated the full liability.

 

So NW passed the 1st Formal Demand with the lower amount on to Shoosmiths and got a ccj on this amount.

The 2nd Formal Demand with the full guarantee amount is where???? NW have not chased this other amount.

 

When I went to Court the Jusdge ordered Shoosmiths to confirm in writing of all or any debt whether under their Claim # xxxx or otherwise within 14 days.

Shoosmiths replied - proceedings under Claim # xxxx are pursuant to the personal guarantee I supplied to NW in relation to the liabilities of my Ltd Co. The proceedings only relate to my personal liability under the guarantee and do not include any liability of the Ltd Co or other personal liabilities with NW. For the avoidance of doubt the only Acc being pursued under Claim # Xxxx is...". And Shoosmiths then list the new sort code and Acc # at Telford and the balance being the much lower balance.

However, critically, Shoos then say "that confusion has arisen due to me receiving statements from NW relating to sort code xx and Acc # xx. (Which was my true local branch code and account). These statements are for the biz Curr Acc of the Ltd Co. The statements are sent to me as a signatory of the acc on a monthly basis (not true it's quarterly) to ensure NW is compliant with the Consumer Credit Act. We are not instructed to act in relation to this Acc and would refer any queries regarding the same back to the bank"

 

So what is NW's & Shoos game ?

The account # they pursued and got a ccj on was never my Acc.

It was for a smaller amount.

The annual statement from NW in 2008 listed only the new Acc # but with a huge balance.

Yet I still receive bank statements with 1/4ly charges and service charges with old correct Acc #

 

I am really confused !!!

 

does anyone know how to delete some messages from my inbox, without deleting them all !!

 

So..

After a marathon late night reading documents I am beginning to see what NW and Shoos have done.

Now I am just not sure what I write to them to get them to be transparent with what they have done..

 

Help ?? Anyone ??

[Mike_hawk]

Did it reduce the balance at the business end [the branch] when it split the guarantees?

 

Is it possible for you to post copies of the pg's less any identifiable data.

[tedney]

does anyone know how to delete some messages from my inbox, without deleting them all !!

Go to your inbox select the message(s) you want to delete by clicking on the right hand button next to the message. Then click on the Selected Items button, which will open a ladder with choices of action, click on delete then click on proceed. Good Luck

Regards

t

Edited November 22, 2013 by tedney
typo

[HP Mum]

Thank You !!

 

Mike - they didn't split the guarantees visibly. I mean, they did in terms of writing to me a Formal Demand. But in terms of the statement they sent in 2008, the amount was the grand total. There was nothing to show that the account had been split at all.

 

I was up super late reading through my files last night.

I will dig out the statements and try to throw more light on what exactly NW did and continues to do.

And be back on here when done.

Thanks x

[Mike_hawk]

I am aware that it duplicates accounts, as are its counsel.

 

If you pay the judgment direct to a shoos account ask it for a statement. There is however no requirement for it to comply.

 

What was the date of demand on the balance held at the branch and do any of your payments to shoos in the interim appear to have set off that balance? Any interaction between judgment and branch account?

 

If you can show evidence of a seperate demand and identify separate transaction data/effect on balances I'd be inclined to wait out the SB on the business/profit centre account.

[HP Mum]

what is a SB ?

[Mike_hawk]

what is a SB ?

 

Statute bar, s.5 of the limitation act

[HP Mum]

So - the last time they communicated with me about the large sum of £s, supposedly with a PG, was many years ago....

NW solicitors kind of confirmed that ccj amount was the only amount with a PG that they were authorised to act on. I know there was only one account. Shoos probably did know that NW had split the guarantees, but seemed to not know. So, what I think you are saying is - to not say anything until 6 years is up ?? Then argue that the only amount payable and covered by a PG is the ccj amount ? Is that what you imply here ?

 

Let me carry on going through paperwork and checking facts.

 

I have noticed that one of the PG copies NW sent me has been "altered". A cut and paste job, I suspect. I know because I have the original and it differ from what they have sent me !!!

 

I am just wondering if I should go into the original local branch and ask for some clarity on why I am getting statements still for an account that was closed 10 years ago ?

 

The interest statements are addressed from the local branch, use the correct Ltd Co name, sort code and account details, and are charging me interest £s quarterly.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Sounds like the account was not closed, yes a visit to the branch is a good idea.

[Mike_hawk]

I wouldn't go rushing to tell the branch anything yet. NW have a very antiquated profit centre mentality and it would fall to the individual retail manager to write the account off... not going to happen.

 

I'd spend some time trawling through your paperwork so you can ensure that all evidence points toward 2 separate facilities. I appreciate there was only one account but the bank appear to have attempted to benefit from splitting the 2 guarantee values hence 1 balance in judgment and 1 live account at branch.

 

For example a/c 12345 in judgment for 5k

Formal demand for a/c 12345 at Oct 2004

No post judgment interest notices relating to a/c 12345 or reconciling with its advertised rates or judgment sum

 

Branch a/c 54321 running balance at 20k

Formal demand at Dec 2004

Continuing interest notices at advertised rates which reconcile with that balance.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

There can certainly be no harm in finding out about an account that is supposedly closed especially if interest is being charged on it.

[Mike_hawk]

I'd tread carefully, the underlying pg on judgment no longer has effect. CCA notices on PJI do, if the bank did not separate the pg from its branch facility/balance and no other statements on judgment quantum are being served it may attempt to argue that the 2 reconcile with an interest encumbered judgment.

 

Hence my reasoning that the op would be best served in the short term by identifying each as separate facilities in relation to each pg.

 

RBS/NatWest retain data and transactions on facilities under judgment at both branch and Brum (duplication on 2 o/s)

[tedney]

Sorry, incorrect post

Edited November 26, 2013 by tedney
error

[HP Mum]

Another year later...

 

 

Brief resume:

NW took accounts and overdrafts and transferred them to a "Managed Loan" account in CMS Telford in 2004 - without my authority or signature.

NW subsequently created 2 Formal Demands:

 

 

1st Formal Demand - for a small amount, against which I got a CCJ and, for 6 years, have been paying Shoosmith a monthly amount.

NO record of the CCJ, NW &/or Shoosmith on my CRA file.

I assume cos I am paying the nominated monthly payment & 6 years passed so dropped of CRA??

 

 

2nd Formal Demand - Was sent 1/4ly statements and service charges. Interest added. Balance became huge - more than 30k. BUT NW have never chased this amount. They have also this year stopped sending statements. NO mention of any NW defaulted amount on my CRA.

 

 

Given that the date of transfer for this "Managed Loan" was 10 years ago and that NW has never chased me for the 2nd Formal Demand - is there any chance that it just does not exist anymore? That the unsecured amount, transferred to a "Loan" without my authority, has become unenforceable and SB ???

 

 

Would be good to have some other opinion / clarity on this situation....

[tedney]

1st Formal Demand - for a small amount, against which I got a CCJ and, for 6 years, have been paying Shoosmith a monthly amount.

NO record of the CCJ, NW &/or Shoosmith on my CRA file.

I assume cos I am paying the nominated monthly payment & 6 years passed so dropped of CRA??

 

2nd Formal Demand - Was sent 1/4ly statements and service charges. Interest added. Balance became huge - more than 30k. BUT NW have never chased this amount. They have also this year stopped sending statements. NO mention of any NW defaulted amount on my CRA.

 

AFAIK

 

1st Formal Demand - Yes, after 6 years CCJ drops off CRA. Payments for Nastywest/Shoosmith also "drop off" after 6 years, at least that what happened to me!

 

2nd Formal Demand - I think I am right in saying that to comply with CCA bank must supply statements for a loan account, even if defaulted, otherewise they cannot enforce. Hopefully someone more knowledge than me can confirm and/or contradict!

[HP Mum]

Thanks

 

To be clear - I never had a "Loan Account" NW created it without my permission. They just swapped an overdraft into what is called a Managed Loan.

They then sent 1/4ly statements, which proved they had done the swap - an o/d current account would have had monthly statements.

 

They have not sent these 1/4ly statements at all this year. I was never defaulted on the 2nd amount (the larger unsecured o/d amount) only the smaller amount against which NW/Shoosmith got the ccj.

I missed one token payment by a few days earlier this year and Shoosmith wrote to me within days. So even after 6 years, I am not convinced Shoosmith are just going to "drop off"... I kind of assumed I just had to keep paying the token monthly payments or else they may try and get another charging order...

Am I wrong?

 

TBH - I would be absolutely delighted if the larger amount of this "Managed Loan" had disappeared, never to be enforced - on the basis that NW knows it is not enforceable (cos crooked set up).

But I am nervous that it will reappear as some hugely inflated and impossible to pay figure....

[tedney]

Thanks

 

1. an o/d current account would have had monthly statements.

 

2. They have not sent these 1/4ly statements at all this year. I was never defaulted on the 2nd amount (the larger unsecured o/d amount) only the smaller amount against which NW/Shoosmith got the ccj.

So even after 6 years, I am not convinced Shoosmith are just going to "drop off"... I kind of assumed I just had to keep paying the token monthly payments or else they may try and get another charging order...

Am I wrong?

 

 

1. Not necessarily, I had an overdraft account without monthly (or any) statements! See here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?427720-final-repayment-of-a-business-overdraft See post number 9 especially.

 

2. Is the Nastywest/Shoosmith account a CCJ with a charging order? Unfortunately the account will not "drop off" from having to pay, but will drop off after 6 years from being reported to CRA's.

[HP Mum]

The ccj was not with a charging order.

Shoosmith tried and failed in court.

Fortunately.

 

So - if I have to keep paying the token payments - do you think at some point when in a position to do so, that I could make a f&f offer?

[tedney]

The ccj was not with a charging order.

Shoosmith tried and failed in court.

Fortunately.

 

So - if I have to keep paying the token payments - do you think at some point when in a position to do so, that I could make a f&f offer?

 

That could be a plan. It would seem that Shoosmith have a "watch" on your account, if as you say just missed a payment for a few days. Not sure what offer they might accept. I was paying off account, using my "last known balance" and when that was reached I wrote and ask for confirmation that account was clear and closed. After some prevarication, Nastwest agreed and cleared and closed account. Not sure what f&f offer would be acceptable to them though, I have never gone that route (yet!)

[paulwlton]

That could be a plan. It would seem that Shoosmith have a "watch" on your account, if as you say just missed a payment for a few days. Not sure what offer they might accept. I was paying off account, using my "last known balance" and when that was reached I wrote and ask for confirmation that account was clear and closed. After some prevarication, Nastwest agreed and cleared and closed account. Not sure what f&f offer would be acceptable to them though, I have never gone that route (yet!)

 

Have you sent a cca request off for the "managed" loan?

The loan is unenforceable - you've never signed an agreement. Which department transposed your account?

PW