Nat West business OD & Shoosmiths - HELP

[HP Mum]

Paul - I know !

but are you surprised they didn't go for more !!! Or that they managed to sue at all !

(But maybe my 8k payments had something to do with the amount they sued for?)

 

I have slept on it. Had a lot in my head yesterday from going through all the papers.

My feeling is:

1) I should send CCA request to shoos re the unauthorised account on which they got the CCJ. They have been writing to me to increase monthly amount, irrespective that CCJ gave the amount by law. So they are my 1st point of reference. Shoos can then try to get the details from NW - which we all know they can't / won't be able to. This then opens Shoos and NW up to me trying to belatedly getting the CCJ removed

 

2). NW have never made a claim on the correct Ltd Co account number. NW only successfully made a Claim on the unauthorised account. More than 7 years have passed since NW got the CCJ on the unauthorised account. So - surely with no communication from NW and no collection attempt on the Ltd Co account - it must be SB ?

I have never been in this position before - but surely I can write some kind of legal letter to NW to say this account is SB ????

 

3). Or - with the wisdom of others who have fought NW before me - is it better to do nothing with this Ltd Co account?

 

Any thoughts on best steps.....

[HP Mum]

Paul

With regards to "has Shoos apportioned my nominal monthly payments to the Ltd Co account"

 

Firstly - I have no idea. Shoos have never sent me a statement showing the sum total of my payments.

Maybe this is the first important question to ask - "send me a statement."

Then I can see on paper how much paid and what they have done with it every month.

And potentially it will show the interest and how it has affected the outstanding balance.

 

Secondly - if NW successfully sued me under one (unauthorised) account number - surely they can not legally put my monthly payments towards another account number?

(Irrespective of me knowing the only legal account number is the Ltd Co account.)

 

I understand the implications of this.

If shoos / NW have (illegally) apportioned my nominal monthly payments to the Ltd Co account - then it won't be SB

However - don't forget that Shoos put in writing that they were not instructed to act on the Ltd Co account - so surely they'd have a really hard time explaining any apportioning of my payments to that account !!!

 

Hmmmm.

So guess first question - without alerting Shoos too much - is to simply ask for a statement of all payments since 08.

 

What do people think of this?

[paulwlton]

You say you were sued for £6k and that you've made payments totaling £8k??

 

Can you elaborate please?

P

[HP Mum]

I made 8k payments before they sued. Which makes me think 8 + almost 7 of the ccj makes up the 15k guarantee

[paulwlton]

I made 8k payments before they sued. Which makes me think 8 + almost 7 of the ccj makes up the 15k guarantee

 

So they sued you for the amount outstanding on the overdraft subsumed in the first guarantee?

Shoo smiths have confirmed the judgment relates solely to the said guarantee.

You've made no payments to any other accounts therefore, it would seem any remaining accounts being processed and accumulating high interest is statute barred.

[HP Mum]

Potentially yes but:

The Original od guarantee in 98 was 15k and this was supposed to be superseded by the 20k guarantee in 01.

The NW demand for repayment (copied above) they quoted both guarantees.

 

The POC did not specify the amount of the guarantee.

 

I'm not really sure why they sued for >£6k unless my guess of past payments & shoos utilising the 15k guarantee is correct.

But it doesn't explain why they didn't utilise the 20k guarantee if that had superseded the 15k guarantee anyway

[paulwlton]

Potentially yes but:

The Original od guarantee in 98 was 15k and this was supposed to be superseded by the 20k guarantee in 01.

The NW demand for repayment (copied above) they quoted both guarantees.

 

The POC did not specify the amount of the guarantee.

 

I'm not really sure why they sued for >£6k unless my guess of past payments & shoos utilising the 15k guarantee is correct.

But it doesn't explain why they didn't utilise the 20k guarantee if that had superseded the 15k guarantee

 

I'd send SAR off quoting account numbers, reference numbers and specifically request statements from inception to date, I'd also send cca section 77 requests off,

[HP Mum]

I can try to send SAR again but NW refused in 2010 as Ltd Co

[paulwlton]

You mention that they transposed a balance into a term loan. What evidence have you of this?

[HP Mum]

But then I did the SAR for the Ltd Co account not for the unauthorised account. That said, even the unauthorised account is in same name

[paulwlton]

But then I did the SAR for the Ltd Co account not for the unauthorised account. That said, even the unauthorised account is in same name

h

 

Think you need to stop referring to the account as "unauthorized" just because account numbers have been changed as it confuses matters.

P

[HP Mum]

I'm out now so don't have papers to hand.

But the Ltd Co account got sent to CMS Telford.

They gave it a new account # and sort code.

From memory there were papers saying R&R account

The statements changed from monthly to quarterly. (Only recent years they stopped this & I only got 1 or 2/year)

Am sure NW even called it a managed loan account in some papers

[paulwlton]

I'm out now so don't have papers to hand.

But the Ltd Co account got sent to CMS Telford.

They gave it a new account # and sort code.

From memory there were papers saying R&R account

The statements changed from monthly to quarterly. (Only recent years they stopped this & I only got 1 or 2/year)

Am sure NW even called it a managed loan account in some papers

 

This is interesting. I'd be interested to see the before and after statements. We know CMS Telford has form when it comes to transposing accounts.

 

PMd you

[Guest]

router account?

[HP Mum]

NW wrote to me Oct 04 - demanding repayment of total debt. 2 letters referring to 2 guarantees - >£6k clearly forming part of the 98 guarantee for 15k & 20k forming the 01 guarantee.

At this point the current Ltd Co account got sent to CMS Telford.

 

 

It wasn't until start 08 that CMS T sent me a statement.

This statement quotes, as of Oct 04, "opening balance" of apx 26k (ie 20k + 6k part of 1st guarantee). They use the new account & sort code.

NW only litigated on the 6k part of this new account.

[HP Mum]

Attached NW CMS T statement.

 

 

Clearly states, end 04 "Opening balance".

NW have given it a new reference#, new account# and new sort code

The call it "X (my name) R&R account"

Opening balance is apx £26k. (This appears to be made up of the 20k guarantee & >£6k)

 

 

NW added accrued interest and started adding quarterly interest.

I paid nominal monthly payments for 2y to try to reduce the balance.

Over 3.5y the balance increased by apx £7k to >£33k.

 

 

In 08 NW litigated. But they only litigated on the >£6k part of the opening balance in 04.

I have no idea why they never litigated on the full amount alleged owing??

Neither the opening balance of >£26k nor the accrued interest balance of >£33k.

I have no idea what has happened subsequently to the rest? Written off or sitting somewhere?

Is it possible to split a debt and only litigate on part of it?

 

 

Shoos stated:

they were only instructed to litigate on the new account #

they were not instructed to act on the Ltd Co account #.

 

 

I am cynically worried.

It seemed that NW closed the Ltd Co, sent it to CMS T & instead created this new account.

The Ltd Co shouldn't exist. Yet Shoos mentioned it in 08 and NW continued to send accruing interest statements.

 

 

Shoos/NW have never sent a balance statement of either accounts. Just the attached.

NW - CMS T opening bal statement.PDF

[HP Mum]

just one other thing - I have found a few more pages nw sent me in the sar I made in 2010.

 

 

On the front page of the dsar it names the new account type as "Guarantee Account"

It also states the date of transfer to CMS T was in Sept 04

The Diary of Events quotes 2 reference numbers - one number I have seen Shoos use; the other I have not seen used anywhere...

 

 

A Manual Diary Entry: GCU Notice served £20k limit & >£6k residual bal

 

 

They sent an account transaction list - quoting only the new account # and the period covered was from Sept 04-mid 10.

(No information before 04 at all - which corresponds with the fact this is a new account that they set up without me knowing)

 

 

Nominal monthly payments I made from mid 06 until litigation were listed. I paid cheques into my local branch but the sort code was not that branch.

Listed on the same sheet were all payments to Shoos after ccj.

 

 

Shoos confirmed the balance of this new account was >£6k.

(So still no idea where the £20k+ went ??)

(To date I have paid apx £4k - so almost £3k left on original ccj + interest if am still liable for)

[HP Mum]

** Update **

 

 

Firstly - Seems to be an unusual flurry of activity over recent few months from Shoos.

I have received another letter regarding the ccj amount - again asking me to fill out an I&E form.

This is abnormal as the ccj has been in place since mid 08 and they rarely write but I have received 4 or 5 letters from them recently,

 

 

Secondly - received a letter from nw. Has anyone else received the following:

"following a review of our internal Policies within Debt Management Operations, Business Recoveries, are writing to advise you of a recent change. With effect from xx Sept 15, interest will only be charged on Secured Business accounts where the Bank holds a legal Charge over Land & Buildings.

Where interest has previously been charged on other security types such as Guarantees, Life Policies and Mortgage Debentures, this will not be refunded."

 

I am not sure what this means for me???

 

However, it was not sent from CMS T but from Business Recoveries in Rotherham. It was addressed to my Ltd Co. (which doesn't exist anymore)

That aside - clearly NW seem to consider I still have a business account with Recoveries.

 

 

I'm not sure on the next step? Any ideas?

Is it finally time to set the record straight with NW and remind them that there is no recoverable debt (SB) with my Ltd Co?? And to cca shoos regarding the ccj account on the other account ?? I think it is - but would like a bit of advice/ help on this first...

[HP Mum]

Afternoon everyone

 

 

I have compiled a letter. I would definitely like some feedback before I post. Please.

 

I have received several letters from you recently regarding increasing my monthly payment in respect of the above Claim x.

 

Firstly, I reply the CCJ, dated x, specified the monthly amount payable - until the debt is repaid. As you are demanding an increase in payments, which is contrary to the CCJ and without an application to the courts to vary the Judgement Order, I consider your actions to be “Unfair” – as per Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUT)

 

Secondly, I wish S to answer my questions regarding the above Claim x:

 

A. S initially wrote in xx advising you act for Nat West. You advised your Client – NW – was making a Claim against my Company – xx – and the Guarantor – xx – was liable for the Company debt of £xx.

S then issued the Claim and Judgment was awarded against me, the Guarantor, on xx.

 

B. On xx the Court ordered the Claimant to “send in writing to the Defendant confirmation of all or any debt – whether under Claim Number xx or otherwise – within 14 days”.

 

On the xx S replied on behalf of the Claimant, NW, that “for the avoidance of doubt, the only account being pursued under Claim xx is Sort Code: xx, account number: xx, with a current balance of £xx.”

S added “confusion has arisen from you receiving statements from our client in relation to Sort Code: xx, Account Number xx. These statements are for the business current account of xx Ltd…… We are not instructed to act in relation to this account…”

 

S, can you please explain / answer:

1. How in A. above you advised you acted for Nat West and were making a Claim against my Company, xx Ltd, and pursuing me as a Guarantor for the Company debts and then in B. you advised that you were not instructed to act in relation to the account of my Company xx Ltd ?

 

2. How S / NW issued Claim xx and obtained a CCJ against me on Account Number xx with Sort code xx??

I have NO record or recollection of ever setting up this Account Number or Sort Code.

When was this Account set up? What type is it? Is interest applied and if so, at what rate?

I have attached a CCA Request - as I now wish to establish how this account was set up and if it was set up in accordance with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the regulations made thereunder. I need to further establish whether I was ever / am currently personally liable for monies owing on the account you litigated on. If you – or your Client – are unable to provide an adequate response I will presume that this Account was opened unlawfully by a third party, that Fraud occurred, and I will have no option but to report this to the authorities.

 

Obviously I am aware that you have gained a CCJ on Account Number xx, Sort code xx, under Claim xx. However, as you have recently demanded I pay more monies, and could attempt to make a further claim, I am entitled to ask the Courts to exercise their discretion afresh, to take into account material matters which I was not aware of previously, and to consider merit in the underlying argument - the primary issue of which is the enforceability issue…

 

For financial clarity I wish you to provide me with:

 

 

• A complete up-to-date Statement of all monies paid by xx under Claim xx and
  
• The alleged current balance.
  

 

For the avoidance of any doubt, any collection on the Limited Company Account is now statute barred.

 

Yours Sincerely

[HP Mum]

Secondly - when I send the cca to Shoes do I make the Postal Order out to them? or nw? (assuming they will pass on the request to NW anyway...)

[dx100uk]

read the cca request thread...

 

 

uncrossed leave blank

[HP Mum]

thanks dx

Have written a cca and it is read to go

Is my letter ok?

[HP Mum]

Does my letter read ok? or should I take out or add anything in?

I intend to send a letter and a cca at the same time.

Some feedback would be good.

I feel like I am coming to the end of the road on this thread !! (hoping)

[dx100uk]

post sep

let those that have been advising ok the other letter

 

 

dx

[HP Mum]

I have rejigged the letter, I hope it is ok??

Further advice required. Please.

 

Im sending in a CCA on the "new" litigated account

but Can I also send in a SAR on the litigated account?

 

 

I never set it up - not in my name or the Ltd Company name

- so they can't quote data protection crap at me as they did previously on my SAR for the Ltd Co.