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Nat West business OD & Shoosmiths - HELP


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Hiya

I sent off requests years ago but because the account was originally a Ltd Co they would not divulge info to me personally. Even though it was just me in the Ltd Co. It was kind of a catch 22 situation.

In the end i just mentally walked away; gave up trying to get to the bottom of what Nasty had done.

Local branch transferred the accounts to CMS Telford in 2004...

 

I only got a mental nudge yesterday cos DX merged several threads I had followed...

And then checked CRA - and saw this "Managed Loan" is not listed, nor the ccj smaller account.

Got curious as to whether Nasty has thrown my "Managed Loan" out cos unenforceable or if they are sitting on it to maybe get another ccj at some point in the future...?

 

I will have to go through all my files to ascertain exactly what happened and when

 

To jog your memory the whole SAR debacle was on page 2 & 3 on this thread...

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  • 2 weeks later...
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Interesting......

 

 

I received a statement - completely out the blue - for another 1/4 charges.

The first this year...

 

 

I am wary now....

FWIW

I had a loan account with Nastywest, that was eventually sent to CMS at Telford. I was sent statements annually. Also had current account with o/draft, also sent to CMS, never received statements after CMS had account. I have been told by Nasty that accounts with CMS "are not sent statements" but I have had one with, and one without!

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...
NW refused to send me details via the SAR, citing the details related to a Limited Company.

 

If I send NW a CCA now - am I likely to get the same response (that they cant give me Limited Company details)?

Or is sending a CCA the revised, updated best way to get the info I need?

 

 

Not sure I understand the difference between a CCA and a SAR...

 

 

CCA gets the agreement and a statement on the account as at now

 

 

SAR provides everything the company holds on you. every single statement and bit of paper appertaining to you they hold

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks dx

 

NW has blocked me using a SAR.

 

 

I wanted everything NW holds on me - every bit of paper appertaining to me - but it was refused as I am not the Limited Company.

 

It was a ridiculous situation.

 

 

I was the only person in the company,

 

 

I gave the personal (unsecured) guarantees, the only signatory

- yet NW would not give me any information/paperwork that would transparently show exactly what NW had done to my original current account with an overdraft facility.

 

 

I know that they closed it and instead created a managed loan - without my permission or signature.

But I was blocked from proving the paper trail.

 

So thinking out loud here

- if a CCA gets the agreement and a statement on the account as at now - how can this help me?

 

 

Is this potentially useful for me because there was NO agreement in place?

No agreement for the Managed Loan?

No signature ?

 

 

If I send a CCA to NW - regarding the new Telford CMS managed loan account (that I never agreed to)

- does this oblige NW to reveal there is NO agreement?

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And if I send in a CCA I am a bit confused as to which section to use -

my NW account was not a credit card,

not a HP agreement and was not a fixed loan.

 

The account was originally a current account with a simple overdraft.

 

So if I use the CCA route, should I use the Section 77 - as if it was a 'fixed loan' ?

 

I know NW created a managed loan account (without my permission), so would sending in the Section 77

asking for the 'fixed loan' agreement put NW in an embarrassing position of not being able to prove any agreement exists?

 

Which, in turn, would mean the managed loan account is null and void and unenforceable?

 

Is this the reason for sending in a CCA now?

 

Be good to have some clarity on this.

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And if I send in a CCA I am a bit confused as to which section to use -

my NW account was not a credit card,

not a HP agreement and was not a fixed loan.

 

The account was originally a current account with a simple overdraft.

 

So if I use the CCA route, should I use the Section 77 - as if it was a 'fixed loan' ?

 

I know NW created a managed loan account (without my permission), so would sending in the Section 77

asking for the 'fixed loan' agreement put NW in an embarrassing position of not being able to prove any agreement exists?

 

Which, in turn, would mean the managed loan account is null and void and unenforceable?

 

Is this the reason for sending in a CCA now?

 

Be good to have some clarity on this.

 

 

loan CCA yes.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Should I send a CCA quoting the new account number NW set up just to NW ?

 

Or should I send a CCA to Shoos ?

 

 

Shoos said originally that they were only instructed to act by NW on the new account number (the new managed loan account) set up by NW at cms Telford. Not the original current account.

I am sending monthly nominal amounts to Shoos.

 

 

I still am receiving quarterly statements from NW, showing interest of £500-600, on the account they closed down, printed with my local branch address.

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  • 4 months later...

An Update...

 

 

I haven't been paying attention and my thread got hi-jacked !!!

 

 

I re-read my whole thread and have taken lots of notes of all the advice and info given.

 

 

My life had a few curve balls thrown at me in the last few years and I was very, very nervous about taking on NW, as the numbers were so large, so I kind of just let it lie.

At the time I thought I was probably being pretty stupid.

But it is now mid-2015 and not once have Nasty ever tried to claim on the bulk of the money I had owing under my Ltd Company. We are talking almost a decade. Why?

It seems weird.

 

 

just as a re-cap:

I used to get statements showing the interest accruing on the Ltd Co (apx 2k/pa) - even though the account was closed and sent to Telford.

The whole Ltd Co debt got transferred to Telford and put in a new 'Managed Loan'.

For the purposes of litigation NW somehow split the debt, used one of my personal guarantees and claimed - successfully - on a small amount of apx 6k- I got a CCJ and still pay nominal monthly payment to Shoos.

So what has really happened in the last decade to the bulk ??

2k of interest/y x 10y = 20k. Plus the original large sum. This is a lot of money.

NW have sent interest accruing statements (stopped last year) but NW have never tried to claim this sum.

 

 

I drafted a CCA Request. But never sent it.

Mostly cos I began to wonder if this amount is Statute Barred now anyway?

 

 

I pay the monthly £s to Shoos for the small amount that Shoos specifically wrote had no connection to the other amount held by NW.

So it kind of seems - in my hopeful mind - that maybe, just maybe, NW can not chase me for the bulk. They know it is unenforceable as there is NO agreement from me for it to be transferred into a Managed Loan. So they have just let it go.

 

 

What do others think?

I could still send in the CCA.

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

I was just checking the dates again:

I originally had a personal guarantee for 15k in 98/99. The terms stated that I could not be held liable for any amount greater than 15k.

Then I extended the personal guarantee to £20k in 03.

These terms stated that they replaced the advice of borrowing terms in 99.

NW actually let me have an o/d of almost £33k....

 

 

From start 04 to Oct 04 I had reduced my company overdraft down to £26.5k.

In Oct 04 the branch send my account to CMS Telford.

 

 

Telford then sent 2 letters saying exactly the same thing, but different guarantee liabilities.

The first letter demanded repayment of guarantee liability of £20k.

The second letter demanded repayment of guarantee liability of £6.5k.

It was weird to get 2 letters asking for repayments of different amounts.

I had not expected NW to combine my 2 guarantees (15 + 20k) but clearly they had.

We did communicate in writing and I agreed to pay a small monthly amount into my local branch - which I did for a few years.

 

18m later, April 06. Telford sent me details of a new sort code and account number (the Managed Loan). Which I had never agreed to or signed.

 

 

Start 08 Telford sent a Statement:

It listed the new sort & account details (the ones I never sanctioned) and quoted Oct 04 as the account start date with the £26.5k opening balance.

Roll forward to the end of 08, NW passed only the £6.5k of my debt to Shoos. (court dates, ccj and monthly £ payments ever since).

But NW have never done anything about the guarantee liability of 20k. (Apart from send statements of interest accruing quarterly until last year).

NW never asked me to make payments towards the 20k amount. They just pursued the 6.5k via Shoos.

I suspect as 6.5 was low enough to fit into small claims???

 

 

Anyway - So this 20k is what I am wondering about now.

Is it statute barred?

Should I just forget it?

In fact, after 7y of payments and the ccj disappeared off my CRA, should I just write to Shoos and ask them either to forget the debt or what would be an acceptable f&f ??

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I have been wondering all night about this issue.

 

Telford have had the large amount, 20k, since Oct 04 and transitioned it into a 'Managed Loan' by April 06. Since then, not once in 9y, has there been even a tiny bleep from NW.

It is one thing to send statements saying the account is accruing interest; but it is another thing to never try to collect....

In essence, wouldn't it be fair to say that I could well have forgotten - and should forget - about this debt ?

 

I mean, NW successfully claimed against me for part of the total debt (the 6.5k) so wouldn't the normal lay person consider this to be the only debt with NW ?? Especially as it was only one company; one amount owing.

There would be, should be, NO valid legal reason for a bank to separate a debt and only make a claim on 25% of the debt, leaving 75% in the bank accruing interest. Is there??

Especially when the 75% of the original debt owing has been 'transitioned' into an account number and sort code that I do not recognise - and which any CCA request I made would - without a shadow of a doubt - prove.

 

Despite the statements I received always being in the name of the original Ltd Co, NW asked me to make payment into the new unauthorised Account and Sort Code.

And despite Shoos, in legal docs, stating the successful CCJ claim of 6.5k against me had nothing to do with any other debt NW held in my name - this clearly is just NOT the case.

The 6.5k claim was listed under the new unauthorised account and sort code details.

And it was part of the £26.5k opening balance statement sheet they sent me in Feb 08 - entitled xxx (my name) R&R new (unauthorised) account number and sort code.

I am really not sure why NW only claimed 6.5k out of £26.5k ??

 

 

 

BUT:

As they never chased me for the £20k, is it now - after 9y - SB ??

How do I go about ensuring this (and any alleged accrued interest) is SB ?

 

 

AND - is it worth sending a CCA to Shoos regarding the new unauthorised Account and sort code?

I could forget it and continue to pay nominal £/m...

However, clearly Shoos / NW won't be able to provide the required docs that prove I authorised this new transitioned 'Managed Loan' account which would - albeit 7 years after the CCJ - render the CCJ invalid.... and I could - maybe - stop making the nominal £/m payments ...

 

 

Thoughts are welcomed....

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More thoughts.....

 

I now understand that a CCJ is always, in UK law, collectable.

So I can't just stop paying.

 

 

Shoos/ NW would just go back to court.

Then the CCJ may reappear on my CRA file.

 

So I would have to either ask for a f&f

or send in a CCA (to shoos and/or NW) which would thus prove the unauthorised account

; invalid CCJ and then maybe I could get CCJ set aside and stop paying......

 

Any thoughts on this??

 

With just offering a f&f

- NW were allowed to add interest to the ccj.

In 7y the debt may have substantially increased.

 

 

So maybe shoos / NW could ask for much more than the CCJ value of 6.5k ????

 

 

Can they demand more than the value of the CCJ?

I have probably paid apx £1700 in 7y against the debt.

But PJI is bound to be much more.

 

 

Shoos have never sent any kind of statement in 7y.

Maybe this is normal? Yes? No?

 

 

Or should I ask for a statement ?

Maybe this will help decide the best

next steps?

Any thoughts on this ?

 

The other thoughts I have had are regarding SB on the bulk of the debt.

Firstly any CCA would prove that the debt within its transitioned Managed Loan status is invalid cos unauthorised; no signature etc.

NW have never tried to collect on the bulk - the 20k (& accrued interest).

 

 

However, I have read somewhere that any payments made against a debt within the 6y of Limitiation Act would mean the debt is not SB.

The opening balance sheet NW sent in start 08 showed £26.5k under one account number - the unauthorised ML account. NW split this debt - for reasons I am unsure about - and only got the CCJ on small amount - but they do have a CCJ registered. This CCJ is listed with the same account and sort code as the bulk that NW never claimed. So would NW be able to argue that the bulk is not SB cos payments have been made via the CCJ to shoos every month ???

Is this why sending in a CCA now is so important?

If the CCA proves the new unauthorised ML account was set up fraudulently without my agreement and signature - then at no point ever in the future can NW ever make a claim on the bulk. And, of course the door is open to get the CCJ thrown out too.....

Any thoughts on this?

 

Just thinking out loud here.

Sorry if I am being repetitive. Just trying - finally - to sort this confusing account mess out.....

Would really, really appreciate some feedback....

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have you a copy of the CCJ or the judgement..work it out.

 

 

pers I think you have been had blind sadly .

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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The CCJ says I must pay 6k plus small costs. Total 6.7k

The total is payable by monthly set amounts from mid 08

 

Shoos wrote in Oct 08 saying they were charging 8percent pa in other words 1.38day

 

The Account Reference shows the unauthorised sort code and account number

 

I have dug out their statement. Shoos said they were only pursuing the balance of the unauthorised ML account - under Claim xxxxx - and give the balance as 6.9k

But their own opening balance statement shows this ML account having 26.5k

 

They state proceedings issued under the Claim XXXXX are pursuant to the personal guarantee I supplied to NW in relation to the liabilities of the Ltd Co. The proceedings only relate to my personal liability under the guarantee and do not include any liability of the Ltd Co or other personal liabilities with NW or any of its subsidiaries.

 

They say confusion has arisen from me receiving statements from NW in relation to the Ltd Co. They give the correct Ltd Co account /sort code. They specify those statements are for the biz current account. They state those statements are sent to me as a signatory of the account on a monthly basis to ensure NW is compliant with the Consumer Credit Act. Shoos say they are not instructed to act in relation to that account and I should refer any queries back to NW.

I am SO confused.

They wrote that end 08

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So what is the next best step??

 

On this daily interest the CCJ debt Is over 10k now - against an account that I never authorised.

Not that shoos have sent me a statement to show the balance.

 

I am tempted to write shoos a letter asking for specific questions to be answered and send them a CCA

What do you think?

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sri I've not replied

I need to find time to read the whole thread from the start

 

 

soon I hope

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 1 month later...

An update:

I have received a letter from Shoos.

Saying my account is under review and they want me to pay more/month !!

They have enclosed a financial sheet to fill in / send them.

 

 

I just wonder if this is the opportunity to get clarity on the situation???

I mean - they wish me to increase payment on an account that I NOW know (after Judgment) was an unauthorised and invalid account.

Do you think I can ask for absolute clarity? Write and ask them for all the account details (SAR perhaps??)

 

Or ... send Shoos a CCA now ?

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I think the time to dispute the validity of the account was before the Judgment was awarded to them.. not now ?

 

Does the Judgment allow for them to add interest ?

 

Does the Judgment allow for a periodic review of your financial situation ? - If not refer them to the Judgment instalment plan.

 

If you are unable to afford the increased payments, then tell them so.

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well they cant make you pay more than the judge set PCM

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi Citizen

Yes - you are absolutely correct. I should have disputed. Well, actually I did - and one Judge did (if you read the early posts) and gave Shoos the opportunity to clarify the account. But when it went back to court the 2nd judge was not interested and did not give me the opportunity to dig deeper on the validity of the account.

And as I was naïve and young and had not found cag I just accepted the ccj and have continued to pay Shoos every month.

 

Shoos are allowed pj interest. But are not allowed to increase the amount - unless I willingly offer.

 

 

Feeling a bit stronger now. And I now know - through cag - that NW set up this account without my authority I would like to bring the whole judgment into question, albeit 7y later....

Since they have written to me I thought it a good opp to question them. Maybe send in - finally - a cca ????

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