Nat West business OD & Shoosmiths - HELP

[HP Mum]

Evening

An Update

Guess it is that time of year when lots of debt collectors like to send out nasty letters to spoil the Festive Spirit !!

So - Shoos have sent me another letter.

 

 

They suggest I agreed to pay a nominal amount/month for 12 months and that time frame is up...

They want to ensure payments are appropriate and affordable so they need to review my financial circumstances

. They ask me to send me an I&E form within 14 days...

 

Well - firstly I have never come to any agreement for a 12m period as I have simply been paying what the CCJ specified 7 years ago.

I know I can simply write back to Shoos and say I am sticking to the CCJ amount.

 

However - as per my thoughts / postings back in July (which I have done nothing further about, sorry to say)

should I now send Shoos a CCA for this account

- albeit super belated and with a CCJ hanging over it??????

 

Can I send a CCA in to them on an account that already has a CCJ?

 

Or would I send the CCA to NW and copy it to Shoos?

 

The account never existed legally and NW / Shoos managed to get a CCJ on it

- so maybe, even 7 years later, I could possibly get them to admit this account is illegally set up???

 

I know this thread is kind of dragging on and on

- but as there was such a lot of money owed originally to NW

I have been super nervous to start discussions with NW in case they start trying to come after me for 30k+ (which, of course, I don't have).

 

Although, of course, NW have not once tried to chase me for the bulk of the debt,

so I would like to be hopeful that it is SB and unenforceable now.

 

Would be good to have some site input on this.

(This is my end of the year clear out of niggling issues...)

[dx100uk]

the CCJ trumps the need for a CCJ.

 

 

if shoes want to vary the judgement and its payment

they will have to go back to court.

 

 

pers I'd let this run.

can't be too long before they offer a short settlement.

 

 

dx

[HP Mum]

do you mean ccj trumps the need for a cca ??

 

I do agree - to an extent

 

I am just worried - esp after reading couple other threads - about the rest of the amount owed to NW ?

 

They only ever made a claim on a small % (what became the ccj) of the contrived managed loan.

 

 

But what about the bulk of the overdraft that became their contrived managed loan?

 

 

Somehow they split it, got the ccj, and continued to send interest accruing statements.

 

I have read up on NW attempts to claim pji and contractual interest at the same time.

I guess that's what they were trying to do with my accounts.

 

 

YET - they have never ever made a legal claim on the larger % of my original debt

(whether in original account # or their managed loan concoction).

 

 

I would like to think / hope that you are correct

- that after 7 or 8 years their opportunity to claim has gone.....

 

eg: they claimed for £6k and got a ccj ; yet never did anything with £20k.

It doesn't make sense to me

 

Not ready yet - but just wonder if I make a f&f offer what they would accept ??!!

Esp as they have been adding pji at 8% for 7 years.

[dx100uk]

yes ccj trumps cca .

[dx100uk]

cant hurt to send another sar though

this has been going on many many years.

 

 

there has been recent cases whereby NW have fund old data now

 

 

esp if your SAR was a good few years ago.

 

 

dx

[dx100uk]

and get that PPI back

 

 

might start something .

 

 

dx

[tedney]

Hello HP

My situation with Nasty is vaguely similar, albeit no CCJ for me (yet!). I have not read through your complete thread, but if you are paying nominal sums as per the CCJ, then I would not bother to respond at all to their current requests.

 

As Dx says a SAR may be helpful.

 

Did Nasty ever send you a form headed " This notice is given in compliance with the Consumer Credit Act 1974....." for a Terminated Overdraft on account 1234567"? If so, have a look on the back of that form, in case you have not noticed, you may see something about "not charging further interest" which may be of help to you!

IHTH

t

[paulwlton]

I don't like the fact that they've obtained judgment on the account number that is accruing interest.

 

Does the CCJ allow for PJI?

 

I'd send a CCA request off.

[Guest]

partic re a 'merged' (non existent) a/c agreement with no terms provided showing any provision for PJContractual Interest.

any PJCI has to be in the agreement. and if legit, then claimed for separately.

[HP Mum]

ok

Im going to dig out the file and go through everything - their poc, the ccj etc

Yes the ccj did allow for pji

 

 

I cant SAR - cos its a biz account and they refused to give out info cos of data protection. even though I was the only employee and signatory.

 

 

if a ccj trumps a cca - can I still send in a cca now, 7 years after the ccj was given ????

[paulwlton]

ok

Im going to dig out the file and go through everything - their poc, the ccj etc

Yes the ccj did allow for pji

 

 

I cant SAR - cos its a biz account and they refused to give out info cos of data protection. even though I was the only employee and signatory.

 

 

if a ccj trumps a cca - can I still send in a cca now, 7 years after the ccj was given ????

 

If one of your accounts was a regulated loan with provision for PJI then your CCA request will be valid.

 

I'd send CCA requests off for each account number.

[HP Mum]

So even though the account WAS an unsecured overdraft, the fact NW changed it into a Managed Loan & got a ccj on this - this means I can send in a cca now ??

If so, then yes I will draft this now.

 

And do you mean I should quote:

1) the original overdraft account number (that they did advise in writing that they closed) ?? And

2) The new account number that has the ccj and which "I" never set up/signed ???

 

And send to Shoos? Cos they are the ones sending me letters.

Or NW ?

Or both ?

 

I am nervous to contact NW now cos they have never tried to claim on the original o/d account. And its been more than 7y since they split the debt.

Is there a time limit on NW making a claim on a debt? Especially a split debt - part of which (25%) is under the ccj and the other part (75%) remains unclaimed.

I'm not even sure its legal to split a debt in such a way?

Is it?

I'm concerned that maybe they only claimed on the smaller part and have let the 75% grow to what may be a huge debt now ??

 

Makes me very nervous in case NW suddenly opens my book again & I find a 20k debt has become 50k !!

[tedney]

Not sure if this applies to or helps you or not, but may be relevant. Someone with more expertise in this area may be able to confirm:

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 c. 39 Part IX Interest Section 130A

 

[F1130AInterest payable on judgment debts etc.

 

(1)If the creditor or owner under a regulated agreement wants to be able to recover from the debtor or hirer post-judgment interest in connection with a sum that is required to be paid under a judgment given in relation to the agreement (the ‘judgment sum’), he—

 

(a)after the giving of that judgment, shall give the debtor or hirer a notice under this section (the ‘first required notice’); and

(b)after the giving of the first required notice, shall give the debtor or hirer further notices under this section at intervals of not more than six months.

(2)The debtor or hirer shall have no liability to pay post-judgment interest in connection with the judgment sum to the extent that the interest is calculated by reference to a period occurring before the day on which he is given the first required notice.

 

(3)If the creditor or owner fails to give the debtor or hirer a notice under this section within the period of six months beginning with the day after the day on which such a notice was last given to the debtor or hirer, the debtor or hirer shall have no liability to pay post-judgment interest in connection with the judgment sum to the extent that the interest is calculated by reference to the whole or to a part of the period which—

 

(a)begins immediately after the end of that period of six months; and

(b)ends at the end of the day on which the notice is given to the debtor or hirer.

(4)The debtor or hirer shall have no liability to pay any sum in connection with the preparation or the giving to him of a notice under this section.

 

(5)A notice under this section may be incorporated in a statement or other notice which the creditor or owner gives the debtor or hirer in relation to the agreement by virtue of another provision of this Act.

 

(6)Regulations may make provision about the form and content of notices under this section.

 

(7)This section does not apply in relation to post-judgment interest which is required to be paid by virtue of any of the following—

 

(a)section 4 of the Administration of Justice (Scotland) Act 1972;

(b)Article 127 of the Judgments Enforcement (Northern Ireland) Order 1981;

©section 74 of the County Courts Act 1984.

(8)This section does not apply in relation to a non-commercial agreement or to a small agreement.

 

(9)In this section ‘post-judgment interest’ means interest to the extent calculated by reference to a period occurring after the giving of the judgment under which the judgment sum is required to be paid.]

[HP Mum]

Can Interest be applied post Judgment/urgent advice needed

 

Thanks Tedney

- I had been reading Baz & Ford comments in couple other threads and then also saw this link above.

Its very long and have only glimpsed at it so far, but it seems to have some interesting points.

 

Will go thru my file tonight to check every detail of NW claim

[unclebulgaria67]

I don"t think interest can be added once a CCJ is obtained in regard to personal consumer credit. The CCJ sets out what needs to be paid back.

 

In regard to the SAR, you are just asking for all information in regard to accounts x and y. The request relates to all data held by Natwest in your name and is not specific to an account. But to get the info you need, it is wise to quote the account references you want the info for.

 

Re the split debt, they came after you for the debt they thought they could recover. If the other debt has not been subject to enforcement, i would think this is unlikely. And does statute of limitations apply anyway ?

[HP Mum]

Before I double check the POC and the CCJ details, from memory the judge added pji. I remember querying it at the time, suggesting the nominal monthly payment would never clear the CCJ debt if 8% pji interest was added. I remember the judge stating "that may well be..."

 

The account was in a Ltd company name. They wouldn't divulge any details to me. Even though I was the only person in the ltd company.

 

re split debt. To be statute barred is what I am hoping. How would I verify it is??

 

20k was the larger 75% of the debt - so they maybe they thought they'd never get it so only went for apx £6k

- the 25% lower amount - and got a ccj on that. But they did try to get a CO.

 

 

Perhaps if they had been successful getting a CO they may then have tried to bulk in the larger 75% ???

But because they failed to get the CO they then realised they could not claim the bulk of the debt??

 

NW have made NO claim at all for the larger amount - ever.

And certainly no paperwork - other than the £500 apx quarterly statements referring to the Ltd Company account (which they sa they closed anyway).

I received statements quarterly for several years, but not for the last couple years...

BUT, I have checked and NW have sent me some recent statements for this Ltd Company

- if I check the dates, it could work out to be every 6 months.

 

NW haven't sent me a s130a Notice, no Statement of Account, no current balance sheet, no 86b of the CCA 74

and no notice informing that I will be sent notices every 6 months.

 

Im a bit confused from reading other threads but I seem to gather that a bank must advise the debtor these things

to be able to enforce a claim for interest on a debt. Which they haven't done.

 

I would love to think that I only have to contend with the smaller ccj amount.

And maybe - somehow - post ccj get it removed cos it relates to an account I can state I have only just realised was unauthorised.......

 

Then I could sleep easier.

At the moment I have no chance of clearing the ccj amount.

[Guest]

is it statutory interest or contractual interest in issue? seems the former re yr post above. which can be claimed, and awarded, depending on the circs. was it claimed in the Partics of Claim?

and is it re company debt?

[paulwlton]

Were the accounts CCA regulated?

[HP Mum]

HI and Happy Christmas....

 

Paul - Are current bank accounts CCA regulated?

 

I had a current account in the name of my Limited Company at the time

 

I gave personal guarantees - unsecured - for an overdraft facility on the Limited Company current bank account.

(I will attach copies of the guarantees below).

The first guarantee was for 15k in 98.

The second guarantee for £20k was in 01.

The second guarantee in 01 was supposed to supersede the first from 98 - so the total guarantee was £20k.

end 03 NW extended my o/d to £33k for 1 month - but left the personal guarantee as only £20k. (attaching this letter below)

 

One year later, end 04, NW sent me 2 letters on the same day (attached below).

1st letter was a formal demand for repayment of guarantee liability - from 98 guarantee - but only amounting to apx £6k (not the £15k)

2nd letter was a formal demand for repayment of guarantee liability - from 01 guarantee - amounting to £20k

 

In early 06 CMS Telford advised me of new account details they set up to replace Ltd Co account #. (I signed nothing)

 

In mid 06 CMS Telford wrote asking me to make nominal monthly payments to my local branch.

The sort code and account # was for the new (unauthorised) account - they did not relate to my local branch at all.

 

Shoos issued a claim in 08. (Claim & POC attached below).

Shoos state that NW served, end 04, a demand for repayment of the sum then outstanding, together with interest at statutory 8% rate pursuant to s.69 of CCA '84.

They state NW claim was for >£6k.

Shoos only refer to the >£6k (relating to the 98 guarantee of £15k). No mention of the 2nd demand for 20k (2001 guarantee)

 

Shoos provided no bank account numbers in their POC.

No further details provided with the Claim.

Shoos confirmed they were only instructed to act for the new (unauthorised) account. Not my original account.

This, of course, is silly as I never gave any personal guarantees for the new (unauthorised) account..

 

The Judgment from 08 states the amount of the Judgment - >£6k - and the monthly instalments I need to pay.

The amount includes interest up to the date of Judgment.

There is no mention of PJI. I will check further correspondence but given the paper in front of me I assume that statutory interest was only up to Judgment. (I was convinced they asked for PJI but it is not on the Judgment!!)

 

So to be clear - NW never made a claim - using my 20k personal guarantee - on the original Ltd Co account.

The last statement received from NW showing a balance on the Ltd Co was sent to me in mid 04.

Subsequent to mid 04 I have received: a monthly Account Charge (from £5.75 - £10) and quarterly statements showing the interest accrued (£4-600).

The quarterly statements became 1or 2 statements a year, 2y ago...

If the Ltd Co and the original bank account do still exist NW have not sent me balance statements for 11 years.

As NW have never made a claim on this original account - am I correct in saying it is SB ??

Despite the conflicting interest accruing statements they sent for years....

 

Attached:

NW demand against guarantees

Guarantee doc (same for 98 & 01)

NW agreement for on demand overdraft facility end 03

NW demand for repayment of overdraft 04

NW / Shoos Claim attached (No mention of Account # & No mention of value of guarantee)

Edited December 30, 2015 by dx100uk
document pdfs merged and rdacted

[HP Mum]

Attached 2 letters:

Order from Judge that Shoos must get NW to confirm all or any debt

Shoos reply to the Judge's Order.

[HP Mum]

On post #119 above the Judge was super clear in his Order that Shoos verify all and any debt under the existing Claim or otherwise.

 

 

Shoos replied that proceedings under the Claim ONLY related to my personal guarantee for the liabilities of my Ltd Co and ONLY related to the new (unauthorised) account.

 

 

They also state that interest is accruing pursuant to s69 of cca 84 at 8%. (the Judgment does not state they can add PJI)

 

 

Shoos then state:

I am getting confused because NW sends me statements referring to the business current account of my Ltd Co to ensure NW is compliant with the CCA.

Shoos are NOT instructed to act in relation to my business account and instruct me to refer any queries regarding this account back to NW !!!!!

 

 

(Anyone reading this now will be confused.)

 

 

My personal guarantee was only for the Ltd Co - NOT for the new unauthorised account that Shoos say they are only instructed to act on !!

 

 

I checked the Diary Event History that NW sent me. This is the only info I got from doing a SAR in 2010

There was a Manual Diary Entry end 04 - GCU Notice served £20k limit & £6k residual bal int rate 4% +base rate

(The residual balance listed on this Manual Diary entry is the same amount that was passed to Shoos in 08 and is the CCJ amount).

Start 08 - it says Important Read and then lists: Balance >£30k dr / accrued Int >£700 dr / Total >£33k dr / DRA £8.25 dr

Start 09 - says Bank Sols dealing

Start 10 - says Sols dealing. Last payment made in January.

 

 

Am confused with their entries.

They make no mention of a CCJ in mid 08 on this DoE.

 

 

I had a CCJ in mid 08. (although Shoos confirm the ccj is on the unauthorised account so this may be the reason....)

Why does NW DoE state start 2010 Sols dealing and last payment made in January 2010....

I have made zero payments to NW other than the ccj monthly payments to Shoos.

And I have had zero contact from NW since 08 (apart from replying to SAR).

 

 

So what should I do??

Anyone have any bright ideas on what NW has done...

[HP Mum]

Just one more thing:

I checked my statements. I made a few lump payments and a number of nominal monthly payments to try to reduce the debt (before Shoos got involved in 08).

These payments totalled £8k.

The ccj was for almost £7k, inc interest.

It seems coincidental that the first guarantee I gave was for £15k - which is the sum total of my payments and the ccj....

Weird.

I am speculating - but could this mean that the 20k guarantee is still sitting there to be used at a later date? (even though only supposed to be one guarantee) and the balance is accruing pa? Are they allowed to do that with no written communication to advise of any debt?

Its bubbling around my head today. Just trying to sort it all out.

Sorry if I am going on and on...

[HP Mum]

Not sure what has happened in the post above but someone has added an attachment (Santander) that is not related to my thread. Ooops.

Must be a mistake by someone in control.

Can someone have a look and move the attachment to the correct thread. (no idea whose it is !!!)

[dx100uk]

yes sorry moved to the correct users thread

 

 

the internet and the weather in Scotland is not too good here

 

 

the links reset themselves

 

 

all sorted

 

 

sorry

 

 

dx

[paulwlton]

Can't get my head round the fact they sued you for £6k.

 

The terms of the overdraft and guarantee allow for post judgment interest so, I assume it is being applied. Who knows what they are doing internally. Has any of your payments been apportioned to the account stil being processed. I'm afraid to find out you'll need to start asking questions.