Are you being harassed on the telephone by your bank or by debt collectors?

[rosierose]

Conn v Sunderland City Council - [2007] All ER (D) 99 (Nov) [2007] Court of Appeal, Civil Division

7 November 2007

Claimant claiming former employer vicariously liable for harassment by foreman - Whether facts found by recorder amounting to harassment - Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

Section 1 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1967 provides, so far as material, as follows: '(1) A person must not pursue a course of conduct-- (a) which amounts to harassment of another, and (b) which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other ...' Section 2 provides, so far as material, as follows: '(1) A person who pursues a course of conduct in breach of section 1(1) or (1A) is guilty of an offence ... ' Section 3 provides, so far as material, as follows: '(1) An actual or apprehended breach of section 1(1) may be the subject of a claim in civil proceedings by the person who is or may be the victim of the course of conduct in question.'

The claimant was employed as a paver by the defendant local authority until his employment was terminated in 2005.

He commenced proceedings against the local authority under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, claiming that the local authority was vicariously liable for harassment inflicted on him by his foreman. He alleged five separate incidents of harassment. The recorder found that only two of the incidents had been proved. In the first incident, the foreman had asked the claimant and two others to give him the names of those who had left the site early. When they had refused, the foreman had lost his temper and had threatened to smash the window of the portakabin with his fists.

He had also threatened to report them to the personnel department. The two other men present stated that they had not been bothered by the foreman's behaviour. In the second incident, the foreman asked the claimant why he was silent.

The claimant replied that he would only talk to the foreman about work. That led the foreman to lose his temper and threaten to 'give him a good hiding' even if it would lead to the foreman being dismissed. The recorder held that the two incidents constituted a course of conduct amounting to harassment for the purposes of the 1997 Act. He found for the claimant. The local authority appealed.

It submitted that the two incidents, on the facts found by the recorder, could not constitute harassment for the purposes of the 1997 Act.

The appeal would be allowed.

Harassment was left deliberately wide by the statute. A civil claim could only arise as a remedy for conduct amounting to a breach of s 1 of the Act, which by s 2 would also amount to a criminal offence. What constituted the boundary between unattractive and unreasonable conduct, and oppressive and unacceptable conduct might well depend on the context in which the conduct occurred. The touchstone was whether the conduct was of such gravity as to justify the sanction of criminal law.

In the instant case, the recorder was wrong to find, on the facts found by him, that the conduct amounted to harassment.

The first incident did not cross the line between unacceptable and unnattractive conduct, and oppressive and unacceptable conduct. It might have been unpleasant, but there was no threat of violence against the claimant, only a threat to damage property. The two other people involved in the incident were not bothered by it. The incident had been well below the line at which criminal sanctions would have been justified. It followed that the recorder had been wrong to find that the two incidents sufficed to constitute a course of conduct.

Well, I'm sure someone with a better understanding will provide a more lucid analysis, but to me the judgement would seem obliterate any other part of the act than putting one in fear of violence. Please tell me I'm wrong?!

[bed32]

Well, I'm sure someone with a better understanding will provide a more lucid analysis, but to me the judgement would seem obliterate any other part of the act than putting one in fear of violence. Please tell me I'm wrong?!

On a very quick reading, it seems that he could only prove two incidents - and if one of those was not deemed as unacceptable he is only left with one - and the act requires a "series" - i.e. two or more separate events.

 

It seems that the court took into consideration the reactions of the other people present as to whether one of the incidents was unacceptable.

 

However the standard "the conduct was of such gravity as to justify the sanction of the criminal law" seems to be the wrong standard to apply to one of a series of incidents that cause harassment. Surely the whole nature of harassment is that a series of actions can amount to more than the sum of the parts.

[bed32]

....or if you deem it to be harrassment or it causes you anxiety or distress

In that case I can bring an action against you for harassment

 

You have responded to my posts questioning my opinions - I assert that that causes me considerable distress and so you are guilty of a criminal act.

 

Okay - that is a bit far-fetched but you get the idea...

[chazza1984]

hi everyone has anyone ever heard of a compant called active kapital cause apparantly i owe them money but i have never heard of them. i tried looking for them online but all i got was put onto this which is makin me think they are not a real company. can someone please help

[ODC]

They are very real. They are Debt Collectors. NEVER SPEAK TO THEM ON THE PHONE.

 

Start your own thread and you will get loads of help in dealing with them

[PaulW922]

Aktiv Capital are a debt purchase company. They will have bought up a debt from someone else and will now be trying to enforce it against you. You need to be a pretty low form of human being to be in this business in the first place, and AK fulfill that description well.

[zazen.warrior]

After nine days of blissful silence Lloyds TSB have suddenly started calling me again, had to be a day when I was off with flu so I could take the call. I just hung up, couldn't motivate myself to advise them they were law breakers...

[The GodMother]

nice one zazen. you dont need this when you are healthy let alone when you are full of flu.

 

Chrissi

[renegotiation]

Please post here if you have sent off an official telephone harassment letter template, it has been respected and you are no longer being telephoned. Please state what organisation you sent the letter off to. Thanks.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/126110-telephone-harassment-letters-respected.html[/url]

 

 

Please post here if you have sent off an official telephone harassment letter template, it has not been respected and you are still being telephoned. Please state what organisation you sent the letter off to. Thanks.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/126112-telephone-harassment-letters-not.html

 

 

 

If you are being harassed, but haven't yet sent off a letter, then please do. More responses are definitely needed. I want to let this post fester for a couple of months and then see what's what. I have a couple of good ideas on what to do next.

 

The telephone harassment letter can be found here:

 

Harassment by telephone - Consumer Wiki

[Givuzagame]

Lloyds telephone using their annoying Robot!

I refuse to answer or respond to such. If they can't use a person, then tough.

[The GodMother]

oh l ove the robots. I confuse them and they then say do not compute must get agent.

 

LOL

[ODC]

Even the 'real' DCA employees sound like robots.

[The GodMother]

yeah well we cant help it if they are reading from a script and they dont understand the law.

[ODC]

They read from a DCA SILLYSCRIPT and talk fluent MERDE

[ghost48]

Hi,has any one heard of ;a Hunter Forrester & Co and ;b IQOR ,We are being called from 0800 to 2100 every day in ref to a debt to the Halifax which we,along with loads of others have taken them to court over(the overdraft charges etc) has any one heard of these idiots and what can we do to stop them giving us greif until the high cout tells every one what the law is in relation to over draft charges .thanks

[The GodMother]

have hear of IQOR via this site.

 

If they get you on the phone refuse to answer the security questions and just say in writing only please then hang up.

 

You could even pull a few fun tricks which a few caggers have done in the past like if you speak a different language talk to them in that.

start saying what l can hear you very loudly down the phone as if you are deaf. Put them on hold buy putting the reciever down next to the phone and hoovering or playing loud music down the reciever or my personal favorite investing in a whistle and you dont need me to tell you what to do next.

 

Chrissi

[trudd]

08708503492 bother me, despite having an arrangement and paying it all off next month.

So I now rickroll them, they won't be reasonable and listen to me so I might as well - Never Gonna Give You Up - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

my phone is by the PC so easily done

[andrewman]

I have been harrased by the halifax who was ringing me 3-4 time a day, in total before i contacted trading standards about this problem, i had over 30 calls in 3 weeks. with help of trading standards i sent a letter of complaint,by recorded delivery. Halifax admitted that the calls where from them and appologised for the trouble. I do not believe they meant it,and expect in the very near future i will again get calls, even though i invoked the administration of justice act. Just no talking to them at all.

[Givuzagame]

When I answer the call, I correctly identify myself by name. When the debt agency then says 'I want to take you through 'security' and then ask me silly personal questions like my house number, I refuse. This stumps them because their procedures are wrong and the youngsters on the call don't know what to do.

The debt agencies bleat on about Data Protection Act requirements. Sure the Data Protection Act does require themto check its me when I ring them. They should check against information that they should already hold, such as my date of birth etc. But when they start the call, the tables are turned. I should ask them to verify themselves!

If you think I'm wrong, just think about it for a minute. You receive a call from someone who you have never dealt with before. They ask you for your date of birth or some other such piece of personal data. You willingly answer. How do you know they have the information to check against in the first place? On the other hand, if the call was from an identity fraudster, you have just started to give away some personal information, free of charge. No wonder ID fraud is growing rapidly.

DON'T GIVE OUT PERSONAL INFORMATION TO ANYONE YOU DON'T KNOW. IF A DEBT AGENCY CALL YOU, IDENTIFY YOURSELF CORRECTLY BUT DON'T SAY ANY MORE UNTIL THEY TALK TO YOU PROPERLY. So far, all the agencies I have dealt with have gone away empty-handed.

Docman

 

YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!! As we don't know who's calling us and give out private info who knows where it could end up....

[jrt16]

I used to work for iQor - formally Legal and Trade, 33-34 Winckley Square, Preston, PR1 3EL. The deal with various accounts: HBoS, Lloyds, Halifax, Littlewoods, CSA, Lord Chancellor's department (court fines), book clubs etc.

Under the law there is no need to stop answering your phone - simply request - in a civil manner, obviously, that your number is removed from their system / dialler. This MUST by law to done by the caller. You are not required under any legislation to discuss any issues regarding the call nor are you required to disclose any personnel details.

Politely ask for your number to be removed.

If the calls are generated from iQor you can ask to speak to a line manager - this request MUST be complied with - as with all callers.

Be advised that ALL CALLS are recorded, so be polite, not that it is a legal requirement, just that you get further that way.

Allow 24 hours for the number to stop calling as the system only upgrades in dead time - after 9pm that day.

If you still have problems you can call direct to either Ms Debbie RIMMER - Call Centre Manager or Colin McLEAN - Operations Director on 01772 202050. That number is for the main switchboard.

[ODC]

Its just a pity that most DCA seem unable to grasp this concept even when the request is put IN WRITING

[Conniff]

Problem here is the word 'must'. That is a very hard word to learn and the DCAs haven't got that far in the learning tree yet.

[ODC]

If its not on their script then forget about it

[The GodMother]

total agree ODC and Conniff.

 

My lovely little 4 year old boy is further up the learning tree than most of the DCAs.

[renegotiation]

Please post here if you have sent off an official telephone harassment letter template, it has been respected and you are no longer being telephoned. Please state what organisation you sent the letter off to. Thanks.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/126110-telephone-harassment-letters-respected.html

 

 

Please post here if you have sent off an official telephone harassment letter template, it has not been respected and you are still being telephoned. Please state what organisation you sent the letter off to. Thanks.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/126112-telephone-harassment-letters-not.html

 

 

 

If you are being harassed, but haven't yet sent off a letter, then please do. More responses are definitely needed. I want to let this post fester for a couple of months and then see what's what. I have a couple of good ideas on what to do next.

 

The telephone harassment letter can be found here:

 

Harassment by telephone - Consumer Wiki

 

I haven't been posting in the debt forums for a few weeks. I am under a self-imposed hiatus due to a build up of stress. :D I just get steamed whenever I show up here. I feel like David Banner on a bad day who has just been slapped on the forehead by the Tango Man. More self-control and anger management definitely needed. However, I certainly haven't forgotten this. I want to make one last appeal for people to send these letters off and post up the results. As it stands, it is already clear that these letters are regularly being ignored. I will wait till April 1st, a good day to start dealing with these fools, and then consider my next step. One I thing I definitely want to see is a simple web form where these complaints can be submitted on the OFT site and then automatically directed to TS. Does that sound reasonable? Anyone have any other ideas?