University of Leeds (Hospital) ANPR PCN -

[Chimichanga]

1 Date of the infringement 12th June 2023

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 19th June 2023

3 Date received Unknown

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] YES

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? YES although exit picture reg number cannot be seen in picture and the picture they have of the reg number underneath is the exact same as the one from the picture on entry.

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Not yet but i'm about to, wanted to make sure I didn't mess it up though so checking with you guys first.

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up N/A

7 Who is the parking company? Leeds University

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Leeds University / Hospital grounds

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. IPC?

.......................

Hey all,

Posting on behalf of the recipient of a PCN as they have Alzheimer's/Dementia and are not able to deal with this.

PCN has just been found under a pile of stuff as recipient has adv Alzheimer's. Now I'm up against the 'appeals' clock.

At present no idea of driver but it it was def not the recipient of the PCN for obvious reasons also because they can't actually drive anymore.

I was going to draft a letter detailing all of the above but thought I better check with you guys first as you've been such a massive help in the past. (Thank you).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

TIA.

 

 

 

2023-09-19 UOL PCN incident 12-6-23.pdf

[Nicky Boy]

You may well be better off writing to PALS rather than any appeal to the fleecers. (They're just money grabbers and won't be interested)

 

When you say the keeper can't drive any more, what exactly do you mean?

Have they officially been stopped from driving because of their medical condition?

Edited July 17, 2023 by Nicky Boy

[Bazooka Boo]

DO NOT appeal.

 

Simply get in touch with the Hospital and request they get rid of this invoice.

Nothing will happen anyway due to the registered keepers mental capacity, not that these fleecers will take any notice.

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Bazooka Boo

[Bazooka Boo]

Is it these who manage the Car park?
https://www.localparkingsecurity.co.uk/

 

 

[dx100uk]

looks like it.

ANPR pay station

WWW.LOCALPARKINGSECURITY.CO.UK

---

LPS are a leading Parking Control Service, providing Superior Car Park Management Solutions

 

[Chimichanga]

Hey Nicky Boy,

Thanks for your reply. I'll give PALS a call. See if it helps.

They haven't been officially stopped from driving but they never renewed their licence as they didn't meet the criteria on the renewal form.

Hey Bazooka Boo,

Thanks will do that now see what they say.

So I'll not bother appealing then and just send the hospital an email and ask them to cancel the PCN.

Cheers all.

On the back of the letter it says to address the appeals to Leeds University?

[Bazooka Boo]

Who will pass it onto to LPS, who will ignore your appeal.

 

Hence why you never appeal private parking invoices as it is a waste of your time and energy.

[Nicky Boy]

Strange one this.

It appears that, as mentioned above, LPS are the PPC.

Yet paying the charge / appealing appears to have the University as the contact point?

 

Any thoughts on who to contact guys?

My thoughts would be still to try PALS...

https://www.leedsth.nhs.uk/patients-visitors/patient-and-visitor-information/patient-experience/patient-advice-and-liaison-service-pals-and-complaints/

[Bazooka Boo]

Either the hospital direct or PALS.

No-one should communicate with  LPS, they're insignificant.

[dx100uk]

LPS just install the system.

this hosp has always been their own PPC.

lots on them here but not of recent.

dx

 

[FTMDave]

Well, this is a first.  I've never seen a university or a hospital issue their own PCNs without employing a PPC.

[Chimichanga]

Shall I attempt an appeal to the email address on the back of the PCN? If it is the hospital they might be more ‘open’ to reconsider?

I can explain about the Alzheimer’s etc and hope to appeal to their better nature. 

[FTMDave]

We always say never to appeal because the private parking companies never, ever, ever accept appeals - ever.

However, you have a point, this is not a normal PPC, it's the hospital itself.

A couple of things first.  The registered keeper should appeal, but obviously that is physically impossible.  Are you a relative of this person?

Also, what do you reckon happened?  The PCN is for not paying.  Did someone really just refuse to pay?  Or is it more likely they input the wrong registration number, or they tried to pay but the tech messed up?  Any idea?

[Chimichanga]

Thanks FTMDave

Yes this is unusual, hence why I was considering an appeal… long shot. 
 

I am a family member. I have been trying to figure out what has happened all day today and think I now understand the circumstances. 
 

The driver of the vehicle was transporting a disabled badge holder to a hospital appointment but could not find any disabled parking.

They then drove into the ‘Orange Zone’ Car Park, realised they didn’t have a permit and instead parked the car just outside of the orange zone area on double yellow lines and displayed the disabled badge.

The double yellow lines were inside the ANPR area but before/outside of any signage detailing restrictions and not in the car park.

As such they thought the usual double yellow lines parking for disabled badge holders was valid. 
 

I hope that made sense

[honeybee13]

Hi.

I'm confused by this. Is this person driving legally?

They haven't been officially stopped from driving but they never renewed their licence as they didn't meet the criteria on the renewal form.

HB

[Bazooka Boo]

No, they're not driving at all, is how I Read it?

I'm guessing a family member drove them to the hospital for an appointment and got this invoice.

 

[FTMDave]

OK, well I would suggest going against the well-established policy of the site and actually appealing in this instance, given you'll be contacting the organ grinder rather than some horrible PPC.

However, the default position of whoever reads your mail will no doubt be "reject appeal" so also e-mail PALS (Nicky Boy's link in post 9 above) and also the CEO  [email protected]  https://nhsproviders.org/about-us/working-for-us/our-team/julian-hartley  That way you have a three-pronged attack.

Explain that the registered keeper has advanced Alzheimer's and that you are a family member dealing with this person's affairs.  If you have any proof of the condition or can name who made the diagnosis, all the better so they don't think it's a likely story.

Explain that you have been racking your brains trying to work out why the charge was issued and your best guess is ... what you explained above.

Emphasise that although a mistake may have been made (be sure to use the word "may", don't admit it!) that no-one deprived the hospital of income for the car park as the car was parked outside the car park.

Request that the charge be cancelled.

Do not at any point name the driver because the hospital would love to "get rid" of the person with Alzheimer's from the equation and have someone else instead to harass who might cough up.

Send versions to PALS and the CEO this evening but please wait until tomorrow morning for the appeal, I am suggesting something atypical and I would like to give the other regulars, who have more experience than me, a chance to comment.

[Chimichanga]

Honeybee13, they’re not driving at all. They are driven by someone else. Thanks for clarifying Bazooka Boo. 
 

Thanks FTMDave. Will try the three pronged approach and will wait until the morning to send the appeal. 
 

Thanks again everyone for all your help. You’re amazing. I don’t know why I was stressing. 

[honeybee13]

Yes, my apologies. I misunderstood what you posted. Thank you for the clarification.

HB

[Nicky Boy]

Agree with Dave's suggested course of action,  although I'm not as pessimistic over the outcome. Another recent thread brought up a government policy about this very scenario, making it clear that leniency should be implemented. 

 

Chimi,

Might be an idea to quote the relevant section from the government guidance in your letter...

 NHS car parking guidance 2022 for NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

 

[Chimichanga]

Brilliant Nicky Boy, thank you so much. I’ll get to it. 

 

Posting for reference for anyone that may need ideas... sent similar to PALS and appeals.

----

I write regarding the above PCN. The Registered Keeper (xxxx) of the vehicle has advanced Alzheimer's and Vascular Dementia (diagnosed at Dewsbury and District Hospital in November 2020 and currently under the memory clinic and taking Memantine as medication) and is in no position to respond so I am dealing with this on their behalf. The letter itself was received, opened and then left forgotten, I'm sure I don't need to explain why, hence the delay in response as I have only just stumbled across it by chance.

 

xxxx is unable to drive and was not the driver of the vehicle in this instance. I have done my best to piece together what may have happened and this is what I have loosely established.

 

The driver of the vehicle was transporting a disabled badge holder to their hospital appointment and in the absence of any actual disabled parking facilities by the Jubilee Wing sought parking elsewhere. The driver drove to the 'Orange Zone' car park and after reading the sign in the car park saw that they could not park there without an orange zone permit and so left the car park immediately. The driver then parked the car on double yellow lines on the road outside the car park and before all the signage for the orange zone but still within the ANPR monitored area. 

 

Since the driver was not parked in the orange zone or in the car park they assumed usual double yellow lines parking rules applied for disabled badge holders and left the car parked there displaying the blue badge for the duration of the appointment in Jubilee Wing.

 

I would like to point out at this stage that although a mistake MAY have been made, the hospital was not deprived of any income for the car park as the car was parked outside of the car park itself.

 

May I also bring your attention to the recent NHS Car Parking Guidance 2022 for NHS Trusts and NHS Foundation Trusts wherein it states in the Mandatory Elements section:

 

'Free car parking for those with greatest need

The current NHS Standard Contract [Service Condition 17.10] requires that NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts:

• must comply, where applicable, with NHS car parking guidance
• in particular, must ensure that any car parking facilities at the provider’s premises for service users, visitors and staff are available free of charge to those groups and at those times identified in, and otherwise in accordance with, that guidance

The definitions of these groups are as follows.

Disabled people

A disabled person is a holder of a valid Blue Badge attending hospital as a patient or visitor or is a disabled person employed by the hospital trust.

Disabled patients and visitors receive free parking for the duration of their attendance at, or visit to, the hospital.'

There is an increasing demand for disabled parking facilities at hospitals and Jubilee Wing is extremely lacking in its parking facilities for disabled users. In fact the area outside is extremely unkind for wheelchair users who have to park a considerable distance away from the entrance because of the lack of parking in the area.

Although I understand the need to charge for parking and in fact issuing PCN's for misuse of facilities I do hope you can see that on this occasion the PCN is unwarranted and politely request that it be cancelled.

Lets hope it does the trick.

Thanks again for your help!

[Nicky Boy]

Looks good to me.

Cross fingers...

[FTMDave]

Great work!

[Homer67]

I'd be contacting the local press if you get nowhere with that letter. They'll be very interested in this story.

 

On 17/07/2023 at 16:07, FTMDave said:

Well, this is a first.  I've never seen a university or a hospital issue their own PCNs without employing a PPC.

My NHS Trust does this as well. I have advised many colleagues over the years how to deal with them.

[Nicky Boy]

IPC membership list contains about 4 or 5 Universities...

Edited July 18, 2023 by Nicky Boy
ytpo Duh!