First Parking/DCB(L) Hire Taxi ANPR PCN PAPLOC - 18 mins stay - Appealed - St George's Wharf sth Lon

[northmonk]

Hi folks not been on the site for many months due to thankfully not having any disputes recently. This one here they've been pestering me for a few months now due to overstaying the allowed 20 mins taxi-pickup time outside a block of flats in South London.

Just posting to ask if this is still at the ignore stage, as you can see it's headed "letter of claim" but this is not an official court proceeding started by the PPC, rather it's just more badgering with official sounding wording courtesy of the PPC's attack-dog, debt collection agency right?

Many thanks in advance

S

2023-07-xx DCB(legal) PAPLOC.pdf

[honeybee13]

Hi.

A Letter of Claim is something we think should be responded to as it can be the last correspondence before a claimform turns up. People send what we call a 'snotty letter', as in many threads here, to let the PPC and their tame lawyers know that you would be trouble for them if this gets to court.

Have you kept the original paperwork like the PCN please? It would help if you give us the information requested in the forum sticky so we have the full picture so far before advising you.

HB

 

 

[Homer67]

I see DCBL are still referring to their now infamous TV program where they demonstrated that Clare Sandbrook and her 'agents' have a very limited knowledge of the law and debt collection enforcement.

Don't worry, these muppets are not acting as Bailiffs here, just powerless DECT Collectors so you can laugh at their silly attempts at intimidation and their demand for unicorn food as somehow the original charge notice amount has increased!

Send a snotty letter to let them know you are not intimidated or impressed by their threat but provide the info asked for first as there may be an obvious easy win should the PPC decide to try it on in court (only the PPC can do that, not DCBL in any guise).

[northmonk]

Sorry about the delay was away for a couple of weeks.

No I had a clear out of lots of old correspondence related to old PCN's etc plus other documentation that's no longer needed and probably slung it out along with that other stuff.

The only correspondence relating to this one is what I still get from the debt collection agency chasing it as above.

I did write a snotty letter that I'll stick in the post later though, let me know if this is ok,

many  thanks

St Georges Wharf PCN (2).pdf

[dx100uk]

please do the Q&A HB asked you too.

 

[lookinforinfo]

If you have thrown out your PCN by mistake please send them an SAR so that we can see whether it is compliant.

[northmonk]

Sorry what's an SAR?

[honeybee13]

Click on the letters SAR, you'll find an explanation. 

HB

[northmonk]

Ok found the original letter from the 
PPC that luckily hadn't been thrown out, please find attached

Regards

1 Date of the infringement 15/12/2022

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 06/01/2023
 

3 Date received 11/01/2023
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Yes it does

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Yes
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Yes but no longer have them, discarded in error
 

7 Who is the parking company? F1RST PARKING

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] 
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

 

2022-01-06 F1rst Parking PCN - incident date 15-12-22.pdf

2023-01-13 my appeal.pdf

[dx100uk]

pcn is out of 14 days time limit...

however...shame you appealed.. youve named yourself as the driver removing the protection you had under POFA2012. next time NEVER EVER EVER appeal a speculative invoice...

 

dx

 

[FTMDave]

You need to send the snotty letter, but before doing that ...

... I've had a search of the forum and the only record we have of First/F1rst Parking doing court is when they knew someone had moved and they could get a backdoor CCJ.  In all the other cases, despite their bluster, they wet themselves when the real prospect of court reared its head.

Secondly, you state in the snotty letter draft that you overstayed the 20 minutes' allowed time, but their invoice has photos of you staying for only 18 minutes in the er, car park park .  Are you sure the limit is for 20 minutes?

Edited July 24, 2023 by FTMDave
Extra info added

[lookinforinfo]

You weren't parked there. You are a cab driver so went there to pick up a passenger. That is not parking. You may have been waiting as the passenger was late but you were not parked,. If you look at the Homeguard v Jopson  court case you will see that just as the Judge decided that Jopson wasn't parked neither were you.

The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 for two reasons at least. The main one being they took too long to send you the PCN. That means that only the driver is now responsible for the charge but the keeper is not responsible at all.

As you have already outed yourself as the driver that is one argument you cannot win. However the other fail by First Parking is that they have failed to mention the parking period. What they  have done is to use the arrival and departure times of your car as the parking period. You could not possibly be parked whilst driving from the entrance to the passengers door . Nor could you be classified as parking when you left the site. As those two driving periods could easily have taken up at least three minutes that means you would have been stationary for a maximum of 15 minutes.

As you are allowed a 5 minute Consideration period and a 10 minute grace period at the end of your time even if a Judge decided that you had been parked [which I think unlikely they will think that] you then have the counter argument that you left within the stipulated legal time  so you did not breach their alleged contractual times.

I am surprised that a company as big as Addison Lee does not have a service to help their drivers in circumstances like yours.

[northmonk]

All very helpful, useful info folks thanks a lot. Couple of responses to the above from you, yes I thought it was 20 mins but as I was only in there 18 mins I guess it must be 15 mins their allowed waiting time, but it doesn't state anywhere what it is. Maybe I'll swing by there and take a photo of the sign they usually post up at their sites.

It sounds like F1RST and a toothless tiger so to speak judging by the lack of cases they've pursued and I'm not moving anytime soon so there'll be no backdoor ccj they can claim an easy victory with.

Noted about the appeal DX, I'll come here in all future instances before doing anything and outing myself as keeper etc.

Addison Lee does have a parking dept but I've found them to be pretty useless in the past tbh and limited in what they'll do and their knowledge. I think it's better to have the knowledge oneself rather than rely on a dept or whatever to take care of it, knowledge is power and all that. Plus it's been a good while since I fought one of these so my knowledge and experience is very rusty but I'm making notes and will always come to you lot first for advice before contacting the PPC in future.

In the meantime I'll post that snotty letter off,

 

kind regards

 

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

OK, but I would suggest a couple of changes due to you not being over a 20-minute limit, plus you've mixed up "letter of claim" and "claim form".

You know the drill.  Invest in two 2nd class stamps and get two free Certificates of Posting from the post office.

 

24/07/2023

Dear Sir/Madam,

I write in reference to the above numbered speculative invoice.

As I explained to your client months ago, I’m a London minicab driver and at the time this was
issued I was attempting to pick up a resident at the residential flats at this property and got
messed around by the passenger who kept me waiting.

The cab was only there for 18 minutes!

I have all the proof for this so should your client be foolish enough to attempt to pursue this
nonsense through the small claims court, myself and a legal friend of mine, who’s very
knowledgeable about contract law will wipe the floor with them.

Pass this information onto them and get them to issue me with a formal claim form
initiating court proceedings or alternatively to go forth and multiply, their choice!

COPIED TO FIRST PARKING LLP

[lookinforinfo]

Thanks for posting your PCN and you have the perfect out.

You are hiring your car. This makes a difference for the parking rogues and so few of them get it right and I would think that your one comes under that category..

. Under Schedule 4 S13 [2] the keeper complies with the Act by  2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—(a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

Once the keeper has sent those to the rogues, only the hirer is ten responsible for the charge. BUT if the rogues have no sent you copies of the documents sent to them by the keeper in addition to the PCN they cannot pursue you.

SChedule4 S14 [2]  he creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer.

(2)The conditions are that—

(a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;

If they haven't sent you those documents in addition to the PCN then the Hirer  has no liability to pay the charge.

So the question is-did they include  those documents sent by the keeper to you? If they didn't you are off scot free.

As an aside the PCN is a joke. I understand that it is out of time but as it should have included a  a Notice to Hirer and  that Notice could have complied with the Act id done correctly.

They haven't done it properly and it is wrong in Law since the onus to pay the charge lies with the Hirer, not the driver. There is no facility in the Act for the hirer to notify the rogues who was driving .Here only the hirer is liable for the debt and in your case, you are not liable for any of it.

You would have thought that as the Act has been in force since 2012 that First Parking could have done a btter job . I cannot believe that some hirers have not pointed out already how bad that PCN really is so virtually by sending ths to you in the form they have should mean they have breached your GDPR.

[northmonk]

The only thing I received was the original speculative invoice from the ppc and then letters from the attack-dog debt collectors

OK many thanks,  I'll get things amended and post it off with proof of postage

Regards

Edited July 26, 2023 by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed

[lookinforinfo]

In that case you are not liable for the charge.

They failed to comply with the Protection of freedoms Act 2012. They now have more chance of becoming the royal family  of Norway than winning this case in Court.

What they should have done is send you a new PCN - Notice to Hirer with the date it was sent giving you 21 days to pay the charge and offering a discount if paid within 14 days. They didn't do that.

They just sent a copy of the original PCN that they sent to the registered keeper which they should have done anyway so that you can see  how you breached the terms. But they should also have sent a new PCN with current dates plus copies of your agreement with the hiring company to prove that you were hiring the car when the alleged offence took place. 

They did none of that. You owe nothing. Just relax and get on with your life.

[northmonk]

That's good to know,  most of these PPC's turn out to be paper tigers in the end.  The only time I came unstuck was at Southend Airport a couple of years back when after much help from you guys on here,  I thought I had them beat only to find a ccj had been issued without me knowing how since I didn't receive the court docs. Maybe the letter of claim went missing in the post or something I'm not really sure.

Anyways I appreciate all your help and info,  you certainly seem very knowledgeable on this. 

Regards