NCP/BW PCN PAPLOC now claimform - New Gatwick Drop Off Zone - I thought I had paid for both visits? ***Claim Dismissed***

[FTMDave]

OK, I get it now.

 

As you say, you have lots of other evidence so the absence of the phone records is hardly fatal to your case.

 

However, if you can keep pushing EE without it eating up all your time and becoming a massive stress, then you might as well do so.  You have the complaint to the CEO running.  I'm wondering if it might be worth (a) sending them a general SAR to see if you can get evidence of their 29 September/19 October balls-up, or (b) a complaint to whatever complaints department they have outlining the mess they've caused and mentioning that if you lose the court case you will be after them for negligence, or (c) both.

 

I'm not at all convinced that the data doesn't exist any more, I might be totally wrong of course, or the data could be there but they can't be pestered to look for it.

[MoaningCrusader]

I devoted yesterday to researching your feed of parking cases. But may not get much time today and over the weekend as I am working solidly. But, I will pursue EE as I can't help thinking I am being palmed off. 

 

Obviously if they have genuinely deleted my data then there is no breach of statutory duty. But how do you prove this? Also, do they not have a virtual trash that you can retrieve data from? Probably not. Who knows. I think that's the difficult thing here.

 

What I do know is that they are required by law to keep all phone records for 1 year for access should it be required by police or other agencies. And had they acted on the 29th September, my call data should've been intact by law. And if it wasn't, then EE have acted illegally by deleting it after 6 months.

 

[honeybee13]

I was about to mention the police but I see you've already spotted that.

 

HB

[MoaningCrusader]

I received the following from EE on the 7th November...

 

Nearly all the dates mentioned on the letter are wrong. I made an initial call on 29th September 2022 to request the proof for the call on the 20th October 2021, and then called again on 19th & 31st October

 

Am I to understand that the line "...due to the above reason this information is not available to you." means that it is available to them? Just not to me?

 

Also do they admit to no fulfilling their statutory duty here? "This agent did advise that they would complete a DSAR request for you, there is no record to show this was completed."

 

Anyway the whole thing smacks of BS... I am speaking to an old uni friend who works in the shady world of corporate cyber security this afternoon to see what he thinks. I really can't waste time going on wild goose chases. But if they are required to keep info for a min of 1year,  then I will issue a full SAR on them for all data & recordings they hold on me. To firstly evidence their incompetence in dealing with my complaint and to potentially evidence their failure to complete an SAR within 30days?? If I go for the latter should I send LoC? 

 

 

EEDisputeResponse04-11-22.pdf

[FTMDave]

22 minutes ago, MoaningCrusader said:

Am I to understand that the line "...due to the above reason this information is not available to you." means that it is available to them? Just not to me?

It seems to be, doesn't it?

 

At no point does she say the information doesn't exist.

 

In fact twice she says it's because you don't have the itemised bills service (which presumably costs more).

 

Didn't they originally say there would be no problem getting the info?

 

Was there ever a reply from the CEO or did the CEO pass the complaint to this person?

 

Good idea to run this past your friend today.

 

 

[Nicky Boy]

Very vague / strangely worded letter, and it looks suspiciously like they won't supply your data because they want you to pay for it first!

[MoaningCrusader]

You won't believe this. But having just took a break from my home office, I have just received a letter from the Customer Data Disclosures Dept with a USB stick apparently containing the requested info?

 

However, the USB stick appears to be blank???? This may be due to the fact that I use Mac and not PC. If so, bloody daft supplying info not accessible to both formats!

 

I will get to the bottom of this and report back. 

 

Potentially I have been blatantly lied to by their Dispute Resolution Team! Who said the info was not accessible!

[dx100uk]

It will be encrypted. It must be by law .think about it.  ..

 

You should get a sep letter or email with details upon how to access it soon .

 

Dx

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

It's not Mac compatible.

 

I went to my local library where it prompted me for my password, which didn't happen when I put it into my MacBook. The letter told me to use my acc number as the password. Needless to say, it didn't work!

 

Still there's hope that they have included proof of the call. They seem to suggest they are happy to provide me with the personal information they hold on me as requested. However, something tells me that will only be billing records and customer service call recordings, not the itemised calls I requested. 

 

We can only wait and see. 

 

The good news is I also got sent confirmation that they are giving me £30 credit for my next bill as a goodwill gesture....

 

In other news, I spoke to my friend who works in cyber security. He says never mind for law enforcement, they'll keep all billing info for 6 years for purposes of auditing. He reckons that should include itemised call records of outgoing calls in case some of those calls are chargeable on my phone plan.

 

Basically, the big companies weigh up the expense and effort in getting the info, with the expense I could be them... So once an LoC arrives and then a MCOL Small Claim, they'd soon start to play ball.

 

He did suggest playing nicely and saying all you want is confirmation that call in question happened for presentation to the court, and that I don't require all the itemised calls from the requested date. The data extraction can be tricky, but writing a letter confirming the call took place would be easier for them to supply and suffice for my evidence to present to the court.

 

 

[FTMDave]

How damn frustrating for you.

 

And what a song and dance when they could have sent you a single sheet of A4 with the calls on that one day.

 

I suppose all you can do is to get on to whichever department sent the USB pen and press them about the password.

 

EDIT: I wrote this before your last post.

Edited November 11, 2022 by FTMDave
Extra info added

[FTMDave]

Any luck with getting any sense from the Customer Data Disclosures Dept so you are able to read the USB stick?

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks for checking in FTMD.

 

Yes, they messaged me today on their secure server and provided the download to me.

 

Sadly, it didn't contain any proof of a phone call. Tbh as my plan includes calls & texts I kind of worked out that they probably don't keep the records for auditing as I am no longer charged by call, but by billing period.

 

The pack of recordings conveniently seems to be missing the original call on the 29th Sept and the follow up on the 19th Oct. I am going to have a good look through it all tomorrow, as I have had a pretty hectic day with work. So have only had a skim read through it all.

 

 

[FTMDave]

19 minutes ago, MoaningCrusader said:

Sadly, it didn't contain any proof of a phone call. Tbh as my plan includes calls & texts I kind of worked out that they probably don't keep the records for auditing as I am no longer charged by call, but by billing period.

Aren't most people these days?  I certainly am.

 

All seems a bit strange to me.  I'm absolutely not a mobile phone person, I have a rubbish phone and a cheap plan, but all my calls are there going back to August 2018.

[FTMDave]

This must be damn frustrating.  All this runaround for something that should have been so simple to do.

 

As this Customer Data Disclosures Dept are being (relatively!) helpful, maybe go for your mate's suggestion of asking for confirmation that the call in question happened for presentation to the court.  That would be enough.

[MoaningCrusader]

Currently researching further for my draft WS.... When I went to look at the government guidelines for private parking firms... It states the following:

 

This guidance was withdrawn on 7 June 2022

Private Parking Code of Practice is temporarily withdrawn pending review of the levels of private parking charges and additional fees.

 

As the guidance has been withdrawn (temporarily) can we use it against the PPCs in court?

[honeybee13]

I have a feeling that parts of the code might still apply. Someone like @lookinforinfoshould be able to help.

 

HB

[MoaningCrusader]

I will await further guidance. However, it certainly appears the area of 'double recovery' or escalating charges is the part withdrawn and under review. Does it not? I can only assume meaning it is not there for use against PPCs. 

 

Here's hoping this is not the case.

 

 

[brassnecked]

You can use Beavis as a counter and rebuttal of Double Recovery, fleecer's misuse Beavis, as it states the cost of the PCN takes into account cost of debt recovery, and there is a case to quote on it Caernarfon County Court I think LFI or FTMDave might have the link.

[FTMDave]

It's true that the CoP has been withdrawn, and unfortunately it's also true that it's been withdrawn due to two challenges from the fleecers about (a) the amount of their charges and (b) the Unicorn Food Tax.

 

However, never fear!

 

Even before the CoP the Unicorn Food Tax was a nonsense. 

 

Have a look at the attachment in post 110 here  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/421775-vcs-spycar-pcn-paploc-now-claimform-no-stopping-east-midlands-airport/page/5/#comments

 

If it's not in post 110 it'll be a couple of posts above or below, sometimes the post count goes wonky.

 

For DOUBLE RECOVERY and you can use (18) and then all of (20)-(27).  Obviously read the paragraphs and make sure the amounts match yours and remove anything which doesn't match yours.  There is case law in there.
 

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Guys,

 

I am editing together my WS here

 

I have noticed that on both initial NCP NTKs and all the letters from BW Legal including the LoC do not use the word 'contract', only breach of 'terms & conditions'.

 

Only on the letter before the N1 Claim Form arrived states "you breached the Terms and Conditions of the contract which you entered into, by no payment"...

 

However in their PoC on the N1 Form, they revert to not using the word contract only "On 14/10/2021, the driver of a vehicle.... breached C's terms and conditions of parking..." no mention of breaching any contract, or that I am entered into one?

 

Is this normal.

 

I just noticed that the VCS PoCs specifically mention breach of 'contract'... It makes the wording for me a little tricky when I can't quote them saying I breached a 'contract' on T&Cs... which are not binding unless in the frame work of a contract, surely?

 

Thoughts?

[dx100uk]

The Driver breached their imaginary contract (which must be detailed on a sep sign, along with it's full  T&C's) when they drove the car onto private property whereby the landowner has signed a contract with them to manage it's parking.

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

As for stuff specific to your case, there is bound to be something in the fleecers' trade association's CoP about (a) making sure equipment is in working order and (b) predatory practices  https://www.britishparking.co.uk/code-of-practice-and-compliance-monitoring  and the same two things will be in the government CoP  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-parking-code-of-practice/private-parking-code-of-practice

 

Having scoured through the above codes of practice, I can't seem to find anything in regards to maintaining equipment, nor on online payment systems. Can anyone suggest where I am not looking?

 

WS is coming together nicely here. Nearly there.

 

Ok... Here's my 1st draft of my WS. I hope I have took out all personal details and any details that may pinpoint my case.

 

I have not compiled my list of evidence docs yet. Indeed it would be helpful if you could tell me where in the WS ref to evidence is required to support my case. I think I have a good idea what needs scanned. But it would be good have further suggestions.

 

I would like to get this pretty much sorted to have on file, if and when a court date comes. As my work schedule kicks off from now until the end December.

 

 

 

 

WSNCPBWLegalRedacted1strDraft.pdf

[dx100uk]

you carefully redact things

then you discover more and go back again redacting..

and then you put it up as a docx file with all your pers details in file info/propeties...

 

now a PDF

 

 

[FTMDave]

Talking of work, apologies for lack of contribution here.

 

However, I have a long train journey tomorrow, and the time will be split three ways

   - dealing with work

   - watching a World Cup game

   - reading through your WS.

 

At a very quick first glance it looks excellent work.  I see you've headed two sections LOCUS STANDI and later DOUBLE RECOVERY.  That's a good move so the judge can instantly identify the legal arguments you're making.  The other parts should have headings too.  However, more tomorrow.

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Ah right dx100. That's everything is in pdf on here. Thanks for sorting.

 

 

No worries Dave. As I said, I am just getting this done now so that it's ready and in the locker, if and when it's needed.

 

I look forward to your feedback and input.