NCP/BW PCN PAPLOC now claimform - New Gatwick Drop Off Zone - I thought I had paid for both visits? ***Claim Dismissed***

[brassnecked]

 Have redacted the file for you there were personal details showing.

[MoaningCrusader]

God. Thanks Brassnecked. I was rushing there in the office. I thought I had covered everything. 

 

Mind you, I didn't think the make and model of the car was personal details, but noted for the next load up of any docs.

[brassnecked]

Plus you left your name showing thought you might be tied up with work so redacted it for you.

[FTMDave]

You've put the two PCNs regarding the drop off zone here - thanks.

 

Yep, please upload the other two to their relevant thread (unless you have already done so).

 

Of course what the idiots "should" have done is sued you for all four together as the judge might well have been unimpressed by not one but four alleged breaches, but, hey, they are as thick as pig poop so take advantage of their stupidity.

 

The absence of the phone call is good for two reasons.  Firstly, as you say "So we are good there to proceed as solely keeper of the vehicle".  Secondly you can show all your evidence to the judge that you made the call to try to sort out payment and the fleecers haven't even bothered to log it onto their systems: it's almost as it they deliberately do nothing to sort out phone queries when their machines don't work so they can issue their PCNs.

 

It's key to your case that none of the PCNs establish keeper liability within the POFA 14 days: indeed as you say it took them over a month to even bother to get off their fat backsides and even approach the DVLA,

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi FTMDave,

 

Just clarify, this thread is for only one PCN. The docs supplied in the above pdf are for the same contravention on the 14th October. One is the initial PCN letter, the next is the Final Reminder before  the matter was handed over to their "Debt Collection Agent" ... er... legal team BW Legal.

 

I currently have 3 PCNs running. Although things appear to have gone quiet on the other 2. I have responded to their LoCs. I guess further court hearings are to come.

 

Can ask, in the event that I succeed and win this MCOL hearing, is their a way that I can ask the court to tell BW Legal to stop any further action against me as it will only serve to be a waste of court time on the basis that the outcome will only be the same again? Basically, can I look to have the other PCNs wiped out?

[FTMDave]

Doh! 

 

And I was good at maths at school, really.

 

Yes, just one PCN here.

 

As for your question, afraid not, they would be two separate court actions.  What you could do is quote the first case as a "persuasive case" in any defence or Witness Statement, the judge wouldn't be obliged to take it into consideration but it would be very tempting for them to do so.

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

OK Everyone.

 

I have received a Notice of Transfer of Proceedings dated 14th October.

 

It has been transferred to my local County Court as requested.

 

I guess we now await my case management directions once my case has been allocated.

 

Do you need me to upload this document? I assume it's pretty generic.

 

I did put on the N180 that I would not be available to attend a hearing throughout December. I didn't state any  reason, as I wasn't asked for specifics. But I will be away with work... I hope this means that we will not be looking at a hearing date before the new year.

 

However, do you think it is now worth me putting together the bare bones of my WS. I have been browsing other threads on here. Many of which, although fighting speculative invoices etc are different to my case in their specifics. 

 

Could you all supply links to recommended threads for me to visit and research WS approaches that would be most relevant to my case.

 

I have chased my mobile phone provider in regards to the SAR they are processing for evidence of my phone call made to the fleecers to find out why no payment had been taken. But it would be good to be pointed in the right direction on what government/industry guidelines are in place defining the obligation of the fleecer to operate reliable and consistent APNR/Payment systems etc. I will need that to add to my evidence that clearly something irregular was occurring with their systems at the time of the contravention.

 

I also would like to find the specific proof how the bye laws affecting airports mean that POFA cannot be used. Could this also be problem with me using POFA against the fleecers for not sending their NTK within the time limit set for when the keeper liability can be transferred from the driver. Does the exemption of POFA on airport land not mean that there is no limit to when keeper liability can be transferred?

 

I have spotted that there's also a defence that due to the time constraints within drop off zones, there's no reasonable time to read signage and in turn reasonably enter any contract with anyone. I am now unable to find the thread with the defence on it re: contract law. I am keen to re-read it and include that in my WS

 

In the response to my CPR they did not supply any of the requested evidence of their contract with Gatwick Airport, nor evidence of planning permission for signage. A quick search also showed that no planning was applied for through Crawley Council for any signage. How do I present these facts to a judge? Are their relevant laws that I can quote to use with these discrepancies?

 

Sorry for all the questions. But I think it may be time for me to start preparing. As you have all said on here, preparation and research are key to success in court.

 

Bring it on...

[FTMDave]

Use our PPC Successes thread, starting from the last page and moving backwards  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/347084-ppc-successes-no-questions-please/page/14/#comments

 

Look at VCS no stopping threads.  There will be WSs towards the end of the threads.

 

Now your case does not involve VCS or no stopping, but it does involve an airport so there are lots of bits you can use

   - the part about bye-laws

   - about no keeper liability as POFA doesn't apply on airport land

   - about illegal signage due to no PP

   - about the Unicorn Food Tax they always add on, this is generally the last section called ABUSE OF PROCESS or DOUBLE RECOVERY or similar.

 

As for stuff specific to your case, there is bound to be something in the fleecers' trade association's CoP about (a) making sure equipment is in working order and (b) predatory practices  https://www.britishparking.co.uk/code-of-practice-and-compliance-monitoring  and the same two things will be in the government CoP  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-parking-code-of-practice/private-parking-code-of-practice

 

[FTMDave]

5 hours ago, MoaningCrusader said:

I also would like to find the specific proof how the bye laws affecting airports mean that POFA cannot be used. Could this also be problem with me using POFA against the fleecers for not sending their NTK within the time limit set for when the keeper liability can be transferred from the driver. Does the exemption of POFA on airport land not mean that there is no limit to when keeper liability can be transferred?

Not at all.  In gives you a double bite at the cherry.  You can quote (a) that there can be no keeper liability as the land is not "relevant land" under POFA, and (b) because of the 14 days.

 

That really should be game, set and match in itself, and I would put the argument at the start of the WS.  Something like -

 

1.  Sequence of Events

2.  No Keeper Liability (for two reasons, above)

3.  No locus standi

4.  Breach of industry Code of Practice ((a) knackered machinery and (b) attempting to profit by that, i.e. predatory behaviour)

5.  Frustration of Contract (even if a contract was formed, it was frustrated by their useless machinery)

6.  Illegal signage

7.  Unicorn Food Tax 

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks FTMDave. The above two posts are perfect. It looks like all I need will found on your supplied links.

[MoaningCrusader]

My mobile phone provider EE have not sent through the required evidence for the phone call I made to NCP back in 2021 to find rectify the payment issue relevant to this thread.

 

The SAR was submitted by one of their customer services reps during a phone call I made on 29th September to them after I realised I could not access my itemised call records further than 3months ago...

 

I chased this up on the 19th October, when I was informed it could take up to 30days and that I should call back on the 29th October...

 

I have just got off the phone today, after being informed they only release call records to the police or solicitors...

 

Surely this policy is in breach of their statutory duty?

Is there any exceptions given to phone companies that would restrict a customer accessing the itemised call records they have held on file beyond the 90 days they show on my online account.

 

If not, then it appears I may have another SAR to do.

 

Also, I am assuming that because I did not personally submit the SAR, but one of their customer service reps, I will have to start the process from scratch, or can I move forwards to a LoC immediately?

 

Here we go again!

 

 

[FTMDave]

Yes, you need to do the SAR yourself.  Do it tomorrow.

 

The stuff about "the police or solicitors" is nonsense.  I could understand the police part.  But solicitors have the same role in society as an electrician or a plumber.  You can deal with a broken pipe yourself if you think you have the expertise - or you can call a plumber.  Similar story with an electrical fault.  Or with a legal problem.  Even if charged with murder or treason you can decide to deal with the case yourself without a solicitor or a barrister.  EE are talking tripe.

 

With technology as it is now, a simple click would bring up your phone records.

 

As well as the SAR, belt & braces, e-mail the CEO  and lay it on thick about needing the records for a court case, mention all the lies & incompetence you've come up against despite being a loyal customer who was making a simple request, and add that you hope the simple request will be met but if needs be EE can be added to the court action  https://www.ceoemail.com/s.php?id=ceo-12015

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Thank you for clarifying FTMDave. I will have this all off today. I am livid that they have wasted so much of my time already. I really need this proof of the phone call.

 

It's probably best I start  another SAR thread for the EE business? Yes?

 

I will be putting together my witness statement this week, as per the posts above. This has been spurred on by the arrival of BW Legal's response to my defence yesterday. I will post that up this morning for you all to advise on. 

[FTMDave]

4 hours ago, MoaningCrusader said:

It's probably best I start  another SAR thread for the EE business? Yes?

Hang on a mo.  There's only need for a new thread if it gets to Letter of Claim stage.  Hopefully they will cooperate before then.

 

4 hours ago, MoaningCrusader said:

I will be putting together my witness statement this week, as per the posts above. This has been spurred on by the arrival of BW Legal's response to my defence yesterday. I will post that up this morning for you all to advise on. 

[MoaningCrusader]

How does this read. Any corrections or additions. I have adapted the previous SAR template, as I do have a specific date. I have no need for all my itemised calls personal data from EE, only for the specific date and mobile number.

 

Customer Data Disclosures

EE Ltd

6 Camberwell Technology Park

Sunderland

Tyne & Wear

SR3 3XN

 

Tuesday 1st November

 

GENERAL DATA PROTECTION REGULATIONS - SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST

Itemised call records held on Wednesday 20th October 2021 for mobile number XXXXXX on Small Business Account No: XXXXX

 

To whom it may concern,

 

Please supply me with copies of all the data which you hold on me in relation to the above date, account and mobile telephone number.

 

Please note that I require disclosure of all personal data including itemised phone call and sms text records which you hold on myself XXXXXX in relation to the above phone number account on Wednesday 20th October 2021.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, and as stated above, this Subject Access Request requires disclosure of ALL personal data which you hold on me for the entire period outlined above.

 

There is no applicable fee for this data disclosure – unless you feel that my request is manifestly unfounded, excessive or repetitive – in which case you have a duty to let me know without any delay.

 

Under the new GDPR regime, you must satisfy this data disclosure request as soon as possible and in any event within one month.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, you are not entitled to impose any formality upon me or to require that I complete any particular form or template before you comply with your statutory duty. But I do enclose a copy of my 2022 Council Tax Bill for the purpose of you verifying my identity, without any further delay.

 

Finally, I should remind you that you have a duty to make clear the meaning of any codes or shorthand which you use in relation to my personal data.

 

If I do not hear from you then I will assume that this Statutory Request is satisfactory and that the one month timescale has started from the date above.

 

If you fail to comply with all of your obligations, I will make an immediate complaint to the Information Commissioner about your statutory breach – and without any further notice to you.

 

This may also lead to legal action in the County Court and a judgement will then be forwarded to the FCA.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

XXXXXX

 

And to the CEO:

 

 

Dear Mark,

 

I am sorry to write to you to inform you of the incompetence and total lack of customer care I have received.

 

I am currently requiring itemised telephone call records made from my mobile phone number below on Wednesday 20th October 2021. These are required for submission as evidence in a forthcoming County Court hearing I am preparing for.

 

Having submitted a SAR through one of your customer services representatives on the 29th September 2022, I was informed I would receive the required data without any issue. However following a call to customer services on Tuesday 19th October, I was informed the SAR had still not been fulfilled, but to allow up to 30days for this to happen. I have diligently and in good faith done so, only to be informed yesterday on Monday 31st October that the SAR will not be fulfilled. In fact, then to be out right lied to by your staff in relation to what records you hold on me and who had access to them.

 

The actions of your staff has wasted a month in my preparation for the forthcoming County Court hearing and is now causing me some stress.

 

I would like to remind you that under current GDPR rules failure to comply with your statutory duty can result in court action against EE Ltd. I will not hesitate to take such action should my SAR not be fulfilled within 30days. (see attached letter and documents)

 

I have to say it is wholly unreasonable that such a simple task and request is now requiring so much effort from myself, an extremely loyal customer. I really hope the matter can be rectified immediately and thus avoiding any further action my behalf.

 

I would appreciate a response from you to assure me that things are moving forwards.

 

Best regards,

 

 

OK. You can see I have now lost all faith in humanity and I am setting LoC stage as my default these days. 

 

[FTMDave]

Both look damn good to me.

 

However, given 24 hours will change nothing, hang on until tomorrow morning in case the other regulars have comments, especially about the SAR.

 

If you hear nothing send both off in the morning.  You know the drill - free Certificate of Posting for the SAR.

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Please find attached the response to my MCOL submitted generic defence.

 

They are quoting some recent cases, have encountered these in responses elsewhere and have you any thoughts on defending against them.

 

I also assume we can claim that my car was never actually parked, as defined legally in the UK:

 

 

 

Parked means that a vehicle is standing still, whether it is occupied or not, for a short space of time and not for the purpose of loading or unloading goods or picking up or dropping off passengers.

 

 

 

BWlegalDefence31-10-22.pdf

[dx100uk]

std rubbish they send to intimidate and harass

doesnt mean they will move fwd to direction questionnaire stage. 

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Dx100

 

FYI direction questionnaire stage was completed by claimant and myself already on the 8th & 14th October. My claim has been transferred to Bromley County Court. (see above posts)

 

We are very much going ahead. I will need to deal with these current cases being quoted and have answers for them.

 

FTMDave

 

Looks like there's no further input from Caggers. Was hoping Andyorch may have rubber stamped things, in case there is anything I may have over looked in my letter and email that would be worth saying... But I think we are all good to go. I know the drill from here.

 

I will post the letter today.

 

FTMDave,

 

The EE rep I was talking to both on the 31st Oct & yesterday supplied me with both an email & postal address for the Data Disclosures department. For the purposes of speedy response, should I also email the letter and ID to the supplied address CCing the CEO?

 

 

[FTMDave]

Two-line reply, in a rush with work.

 

Yep, good to go.

 

I would e-mail the CEO and CC the Data Disclosures department.  Make it clear it's the CEO you're involving due to the incompetence of who messed you about.

[MoaningCrusader]

Here you go:

 

Dear Mark,

 

I am writing to inform you of the incompetence and total lack of customer care that I have recently been receiving. But I feel I need your involvement, as I have been repeatedly misled my your customer services as to their actions on my behalf and my rights under current GDPR rules. I’m afraid this is now causing me a great deal stress in my preparations to present evidence at a forthcoming County Court hearing.

 

I currently require itemised telephone call records made from my mobile phone number below on Wednesday 20th October 2021. These are required for my submission as evidence in a forthcoming County Court hearing I am preparing for.

 

I submitted a SAR on a phone call through one of your customer services representatives on the 29th September 2022, and I was informed I would receive the required data without any issue. However following a call to customer services on Tuesday 19th October, I was informed the SAR had still not been fulfilled, but to allow up to 30days for this to happen. I have diligently and in good faith done so, only to be informed on both Monday 31st October and Tuesday 1st November that the SAR will not be fulfilled. In the process I have been misled by your customer service managers and staff both in the actions they were apparently taking on my behalf in the 30days since my initial SAR and also more alarmingly in relation to what records you hold on me and who has a right to access them.

 

The actions of your staff has wasted a month in my preparation for the forthcoming County Court hearing which is the main cause of my escalating stress. I now have to start this process again personally in writing, with another potential 30days to wait for my personal data to be supplied. I have started this process again and posted a SAR in writing today to your Data Disclosure Department in Sunderland. But I feel it best that you are informed of the situation and can now over see that a potentially serious breach of statutory duty by your company does not occur.

 

I would like to remind you that under current GDPR rules failure to comply with your statutory duty can result in court action against EE Ltd. I will not hesitate to take such action should my SAR not be fulfilled within 30days. (see attached letter and documents)

 

I have to say it is wholly unreasonable that such a simple task and request is now requiring so much effort from myself, an extremely loyal customer. I really hope the matter can be rectified immediately and thus avoiding any further action and stress on my behalf.

 

I would appreciate a response from you to assure me that you are personally insuring things are moving forwards.

 

Best regards,

 

Already posted the SAR letter and got the FPOP. 

 

 

[FTMDave]

[MoaningCrusader]

I have just had a phone call with EE Customer Resolution.

 

Their representative claimed they do not keep any call records from mobiles more than 6months unless you have itemised billing. Then it can be up to 6 years.

 

However I just quickly found this info:

 

Mobile operators must by law store a year of call records of all of their customers, which police forces and other agencies can then access without a warrant using the controversial Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (Ripa).

 

This means had they carried out the initial SAR requested on the 29th September 2022, the records should have still been on file.

 

I have left the SAR unfulfilled. But I feel we now could be looking at situation where the data is going to be claimed to be gone forever??

 

Any thoughts?

 

[FTMDave]

Another two-line reply due to work.

 

I know nowt about this sort of thing TBH.

 

However, initial thoughts are that you should send the SAR anyway.  Just because they can delete records after a year doesn't mean they always do (presumably).  Nothing ventured ...

 

I've just scrolled though my own calls on my carp cheapy mobile and they're all listed back till July 2018 (which is when I presume I bought it).

 

EDIT - I've just quickly reread the posts above and you say you have already sent the SAR, right?

[MoaningCrusader]

I have. Posted and emailed yesterday. Hence the prompt call from their Customer Resolutions Dept within 24hrs... Very nice lady... But I left it unresolved and asked for the call to 

 

My problem now is, their time wasting MAY mean that I have no way of recalling the records. In fact their time wasting is the exact and main reason why my SAR was not and cannot be fulfilled. If they had just done it on the 29th Sept, the records should've been kept by law.

 

I am now just off the phone again asking can they not help, as it was the fault of the initial SAR not being seen through that has now pushed time frame beyond 12months. She claimed the records are not there anymore.

 

She has just left that she is sending me a letter of referral to the ombudsman.

 

 

Tbh I may leave the call thing alone. As I can still prove no payment was taken, neither for my pick up on 14th Oct 2021, nor for my drop off on 18th Oct. Thus proving their was clearly a problem with their systems at that time, as by that evidence I should have received to NTKs not just this one.