CEL ANPR PCN - POPLA unsuccessful -PAPLOC - Now Claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park, London SE5 8RW - paid have receipt too! ***Claim Discontinued***

[Annabooo]

Thanks guys! I am aware that CEL have no chance in gaining CCJ from me as I have paid my ticket which they have accepted on the day. Contract agreed and payment accepted. 

 

Not going to waste any energy or time on these threats. Will just put it to the side when it comes but I will keep on eye on the 'Letter before claim' as I know I will need to respond to that. 

 

I will post the threats as it comes so others can see CEL's procedures when threatening drivers to pay up and increasing their invoice each time. 

 

[brassnecked]

When it comes to snotty letter time you can have some fun with them

 

[Annabooo]

Happy New Year everyone. 

 

Another threat came through which I will of course ignore. - see attached.

 

I noticed they are still trying to charge the same amount as last time and not increased their fees even though they gave me 14days to pay it back in October. 

 

They don't seem to be keeping on top with their charges!

 

2021-12-31 CEL Final Reminder before DCA.pdf

[honeybee13]

Ah yes, the big scary red font.   Ignore as you say, but probably best to file it.

 

HB

[lookinforinfo]

I suppose you can now expect to get several letters from an unregulated debt collector. they usually send out one or two requests fro payment then they start sending you demands headed Final Demand.  You'll probably get three of those. I think they were off school the day English comprehension was on the curriculum. 

 

Absolutely nothing to worry about from them. Just ignore them they are not worth even a second class stamp. Totally ineffectual unless you have a cat as I understand that it fits quite well into the kitty litter tray. 

 

Eventually you might get a Letter of Claim from  CEL or  some muppets who call themselves solicitors.   Let us know and you can send them a rude letter which may get them to look elsewhere for a mug as it'e obvious that you aren't one.

[Annabooo]

Another threat that came through the post this week.

 

This time it is from the Balliffs. 

 

At the bottom of the letter it says 'This case is not subject to High Court or Balliffs actions'. Although the letter is from the Balliffs themselves. It is just another threat like previous letters but from a different company! I just can't take these guys seriously as they don't follow through. 

 

Cannot wait to receive the 'Letter of Claim' so I can tell them to P**** off! 

 

Will keep everyone posted and thank you for your support.

I have all the documents saved onto iCloud and kept hard copies filed away. 

 

2022-02-11 DCBL unpaid PCN.pdf

[dx100uk]

They are operating as a dca.

 

Dx

[brassnecked]

They are the CH 5 Can't pay mob bus as acting as a DCA, they are the " Can't do Diddly" mob.

[Annabooo]

Fourth threat came through the post this week. Looks similar to the previous letter. 

 

As always, I will ignore. 

 

2022-03-03 DCBL Final Reminder - unpaid PCN.pdf

[brassnecked]

Usual guff, noticde the misapplication of Beavis in the second part. That case applies strictly on its  own facts and is not a blanket Precedent to justify diddly.

[lookinforinfo]

Annabooo at the moment your PCN dated 26th May is not PoFA compliant but that may be because the required wording is on the back of the PCN. Could you please therefore repost the whole of both pages from the Notice to Keeper. 

 

Moving on the second point which is about the signage. ABC parking look as if they are in charge there but enforcement is by CEL.  Could you please write to the DVLA and ask about ABC parking.

 

Ask the DVLA if they know that ABC have signage in the car park with no BPA nor IPC logos on the signs probably because they do not appear to be members of either. Does the DVLA know that ABC parking Ltd. no longer appear to be in business. Nor do they appear to be registered  with the ICO under GDPR regulations.

 

In which case should they be showing their signs in the car park? And does CEL have the right to use ABC signage to enforce their PCNs? And does the contract with the land owners allow a third party involvement? And confirm that it was ABC that applied for the data since it was their signage on site.

In the BPA Code of Conduct they say that their members should exhibit the BPA logo on their  signs. CEL do not even have any signs in the car park let alone any with a BPA logo. Therefore as  they are in breach of the BPA CoP  ask the DVLA if that means that CEL  have  obtained your data unlawfully.

 

Email all those questions to the DVLA         [email protected]

 

 

[Annabooo]

Thanks lookinforinto! 

 

Please see attached the NTK front and back as requested. 

 

I will email DVLA now and ask about the ABC signages which doesn't appear to have BPA nor IPC logos on their signs and see what will be confirmed. 

 

This is getting more interesting..... 

 

NTK.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

Thank you for posting the PCN front and back.

 

THe NTK is not compliant for two reasons.

The wording on the back of the notice is almost right but not enough to make it compliant.

 

this is what PoFA states should be said   (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) .

 

This is what CEL put it "is subject to the applicable conditions in that Schedule" which is almost meaningless.

They are practically saying that there are certain conditions that are demanded in Schedule 4 but they haven't admitted to abiding by them. And they do have to admit that in s9 [2][f].

 

They are supposed to state the period of parking within which the breach occurred. Instead they have quoted the time of arrival at the car park and the time of leaving. As the new CoP remarks, those times are not the times of parking since drivers have to find a place to park and then on leaving may take several minutes to actually leave the car park.

 

The parking crooks may say that the new CoP has not yet come into force. But the Government have said that those parts of the new Act that can be brought into force straight away should be. In any event it was always Parliaments intention that there was a distinction between a period of parking and the arrival and leaving of the car park as the original draft of PoFA included the period of parking. It is the parking companies who have usurped that intention by their greed in trying to squeeze out every last minute of time for their own financial benefit. 

 

For instance they include entering the car park as part of their grace period when drivers cannot read the T&Cs on a notice when trying to park a car at the same time.

 

Also when writing to the DVLA please ask them all the questions I posed in my previous post to you.

 

[Annabooo]

Thank you so much lookinforinfo! 

 

I did try to find out if the grace period can start at the beginning but I was told grace period only applies when you leave the car park. 

 

I have emailed DVLA and have asked them all the questions you have posted. Will see what they will come back to me with. 

 

I still feel confident about my case as I have my paid ticket which they have accepted on the day. Contract agreed and accepted. Can't turn around and fine me a month later and not even offer me a refund on my ticket. 

 

I will keep everyone posted. 

[dx100uk]

total rubbish. 

grace period is a minimum of 10 mins there is no max stated and it always applies.

 

who told you that BS...

[Annabooo]

Oh really... it was from a parking fine Facebook group.

 

I didn't find them helpful at all because some comments said 10mins to pay for parking is generous and made me feel that I couldn't challenge the fine. I said most places allow us to pay for the parking when we leave. 

 

So in my case, I can also argue about the grace period too since payment went through and over by 4mins because their system was crap. But does the pay within 10mins they have claimed on their signs is part of the grace period? 

[brassnecked]

Grace period can be any length usually at least 10 minutes in case you cannot park or don't stay there for whatever reason as to the FaceBork group, a Private Parking Invoice is never and can never be a FINE.

 

[Annabooo]

I have unfollowed that group. Waste of my energy and time reading their posts. So glad I have found this forum though. Thanks guys!

 

I have received a response back from DVLA and they require additional information: 

 

'In order to look into this matter for you I require some additional information - vehicle VRN, Make and Model, a copy of the PCN and any other correspondence you have received.' 

 

I don't understand why they need all my information and correspondence between me and CEL? All they need is just to confirm if CEL have the rights to use ABC signages to enforce their PCN? 

[dx100uk]

no the dvla is nothing to do with signs nor enforcement.

they might well want the info to decide if CEL have not created the right legal arguments to request the info from DVLA.

 

like many others in the past, the DVLA might well be looking to ban them from the £2.50 service for abuse.

 

give them the info help everyone

 

dx

 

[Annabooo]

Okay, I have submitted the correspondence to DVLA. 

 

I do hope CEL gets banned!

 

Will see what DVLA says. 

 

I will keep everyone posted. 

 

Thanks again!

 

[dx100uk]

good move

[Annabooo]

I have now received a response back from DVLA. 

 

"The DVLA takes the protection and security of its data very seriously and has procedures in place to ensure data is disclosed only where it is lawful and fair to do so and where the provisions of the Data Protection Law are met.

 

The DVLA releases information on the basis that reasonable cause is demonstrated. I have investigated this matter with Civil Enforcement Ltd, they have confirmed the PCN was issued for failure to make a payment for parking within 10 minutes of arrival, in breach of the terms and conditions of parking. (Time of entry to the car park 10:19, payment receipt issue 10:33).

 

While seeking to ensure that vehicle keeper data is released only in appropriate circumstances, it is not a matter for the Agency to decide on the merits of individual cases or to arbitrate in any civil disputes between motorists and private car park enforcement companies.

 

To help ensure motorists are treated fairly when any private parking charge is pursued the DVLA discloses vehicle keeper information only to companies that are members of an appropriate Accredited Trade Association (ATA). The purpose of requiring a company to be a member of an ATA is to ensure that those who request DVLA information are legitimate companies that operate within a code of practice that promotes fair treatment of the motorist and ensures that there is a clear set of standards for operators.

 

The company in question, Civil Enforcement Ltd are a member of the British Parking Association (BPA) which is an Accredited Trade Association for the parking industry. The BPA’s code of practice is published on its website at http://www.britishparking.co.uk under the heading “Approved Operators Scheme”. If a member of this scheme does not comply with the code of practice, it may be suspended or expelled, during which time no data will be provided to it by the DVLA.

 

If you feel that any of the practices used by the company do not comply with the BPA’s code of practice, you may wish to contact the BPA via email at Page 2 of 2 https://portal.britishparking.co.uk/compliance/LogComplaint or by post at Chelsea House, 8-14 The Broadway, Haywards Heath, West Sussex RH16 3AH

 

I trust I have explained matters but, if you remain unhappy with the service you have received, you can write to our Complaints Team and I have provided a link to our complaints procedure leaflet for your reference. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/driver-and-vehicle-licensingagency/about/complaints-procedure."

 

DVLA didn't answer my questions about ABC signages. I even sent them photos of the signs at the car park and Civil Enforcement doesn't have any signs at the car park! 

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

id complain that CEL does not have any signs in their name at the car park.?

 

[lookinforinfo]

Annabooo that was a very poor response to your query. It's up to you but you could respond in the way below.

 

I am in receipt of your email which did not even attempt to answer my question which was about ABC parking. Not once did you even mention their name in your response let alone justify the fact that they appear to be carrying on the duties of a parking operator without being either a member of the BPA or IPC.

 

Were you aware of the practice? If so  and you don't disapprove of the practice it would have helped answer my question had you given the reasons for your decision.  Obviously ABC Parking do not need to observe  the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and could amend their signage to whatever they want since they cannot display the BPA logo as required in the BPA CoP. . Given your naive belief stated further down your email 

 that you believe that "the BPA Code of Practice  promotes fair treatment of the motorist" I have no faith that the DVLA are capable of monitoring the ABC signage either now or in the future.

 

As you know the Government has produced a new Code of Practice which came into force back in 2019. It's final part does not come into force until next year to allow the necessary changes to their paperwork such as PCNs as well as rewriting the contracts with land owners for instance. However other parts should already be in force. But BPA are too busy complaining about what the changes will do to their members when what they should have been doing is amending their Code of Practice to comply with the new Government Code of practice.

 

So we have a situation where the new Act is not being introduced by the BPA nor the IPC and so things that should no longer be considered as "reasonable cause" are still being treated by the BPA  and yourselves at the DVLA as if they are lawful. For instance under the new CoP many car parks are by Law entitled to a 10 minute consideration period where a parking ticket must not be issued. Yet some parking companies including CEL demand that payment for parking must be completed within ten minutes. There is a conflict for the DVLA. Under the new Government  CoP, in force since 2019 the issue of a ticket has to wait for ten minutes minimum while the PPA CoP still suggests that a ticket can be issued if payment is not made within ten minutes.

 

I would welcome your comments and suggest that rather than use BPA or the even more  infamous IPC as arbiters of what is fair to motorists you study PoFA and take your guidance from that.

 

 

 

 

[Annabooo]

Oh wow, thank you so much for making the time to write that lookinforinfo. I feel so grateful! I will definitely send it to DVLA then. 

 

I feel the person responding to my email just didn't bother investigating properly, just like POPLA. CEL knows how to play them about! 

 

I will let you know when they will reply. 

 

Thank you again and have a good weekend!