vcs pcn claimform - JLA Liverpool Airport-no stopping ***Claim Dismissed with Costs*** judge said VCS can't enforce no stopping

[dx100uk]

correct just yours .... if others are not your data no need to redact other peoples.

 

 

[Didusha]

I have scanned and uploaded the letter and contract only. The rest of the pack includes the initial PCN, various demand for payment letters, the letter before claim, which I have uploaded previously. In a separate pdf, I have included my appeal, for which I had no record up until now, because it was done via their site.

CPR reply 1.pdfapp.pdf

Edited January 28, 2022 by Didusha
Incorrect wording

[FTMDave]

I've just had the most superficial of looks at the contract, and see it started 8 July 2013 ... "for a fixed period of 24 months".  Ho! Ho! Ho!

[lookinforinfo]

Have you written to Liverpool airports about why you stopped? The reason I ask is because in their contract with the crooks it states  at 3.8 that LJA can write to VCS and ask them to cancel.

A letter similar to the one you wrote yourself to VCS with a couple of tweaks might get them to see sense where it is sadly lacking with VCS  [Very Certainly  Scumbags].

[Didusha]

No, I haven't written to JLA, but I did notice it when reading through the contract.

I suppose it wouldn't affect the court claim negatively.

Not sure whether they will be any more reasonable than VCS, however it may be worth a try.

 

Normally, at those type of  barriers you can speak to someone to let you go through and come out on the other side, I know they have them at other airports. But in this case I don't remember seeing one, hence my panic.

What tweaks would you advise to use?

 

 

On 28/01/2022 at 11:53, FTMDave said:

I've just had the most superficial of looks at the contract, and see it started 8 July 2013 ... "for a fixed period of 24 months".  Ho! Ho! Ho!

 

Would the Contract witness statement at the end signed on 19.10.2015,  with no mention of contract end date, mean that the contract is in place indefinitely?

[FTMDave]

Not at all.  It's not a contract.  It's just some bod saying something. 

 

So they have shown a contract which lasted from 08.07.2013 to 07.07.2015, and then a statement (not a contract) saying they were running the place in 2015. 

 

You got your ticket in 2020!

[Didusha]

After reading through several posts, the below defence is what people have used.

I will be submitting it today.

 

Do I need to admit to being the driver as well as the keeper(1). I have appealed, so they know I was the driver.

 

1. It is admitted that Defendant is the recorded keeper of xxxxxxx

 

2. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance.

 

The Claimant was only contracted to provide car park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. The proper claimant is the landowner

 

3. It is denied that the Defendant breached any terms and conditions set on private land.

 

4. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant, or broke any such contract.

 

5. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all.

 

I will be submitting my defence today.

 

Do I need to admit to being the driver as well as the keeper. I have appealed, so they know I was the driver.

[dx100uk]

as is.

at this stage it doesnt matter about your appeal

 

dx

[honeybee13]

Thread reopened.

 

HB

[Didusha]

Hello,

 

I have had a recent development regarding the court claim.

I received a letter from the court ordering VCS to resubmit their particulars of claim 

 

In response to the letter, recently I received the below from VCS.

 

 

I have until 15 of June to respond. I have a few of questions:

1. Do I resubmit my defense, and change its content to reflect the new particulars of claim? It claim hasn't changed significantly, but there are now paragraphs.

2. If so, do I do it online or directly to the court, as it has already been allocated.

3. Also, the last communication with VCS prior to this, has been from Elms and their instructions were to send everything to Elms. I now see that they are sending everything themselves. In the letter from the court, it says send copies to the claimant's solicitor. If I need to resubmit my defence, who do I send copies to? 

 

Thank you in advance.

 

I am trying to find another thread where this has happened, so far I haven't been successful, so if you know of any, please could you share.

 

2022-05-09 VCS Detailed POC.pdf 2022-04-20 N24 Court Directions.pdf

[FTMDave]

The court order says that you "may send ... a defence in substitution" so you don't have to, but you have the opportunity to do so if you wish.

 

A quick superficial read through VCS's document seems to show they have actually bothered to comply with the court order and give the details the judge ordered.

 

Work calls now but I'll have a proper read through things this evening and get back to you.

[FTMDave]

Right, first the bad bit.  Usually VCS's roboclaims which mix driver & keeper and don't really state what they are suing you for sail through the court system as they staff don't have the time to check everything.  In your case you seem to have found a particularly excellent judge who has picked up on their tripe and made them specify the details properly.  Had you not appealed, you would be home & dry now, as no way would Simple Simon be able to say if they were relying on POFA or not and in which role they were suing you, etc.  Every single one of us on CAG have made mistakes in legal disputes in the past - that's just inevitable when someone has no prior experience - but please learn for the future and if you ever again get one of these invoices never appeal.

 

We deliberately make the defence as generic as possible so it can cover any eventuality.  "4. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant, or broke any such contract" can cover all your remaining points later in your Witness Statement -  

 

No Locus Standi, so no contract entered into;

No planning permission, illegal signage, so no contract entered into;

Prohibition, so no contract entered into;

10-minute grace period so no contract broken;

not a parking event, so no contract entered into;

double recovery.

 

So just my opinion, but on reflection I don't think you need to chance your defence.

 

However, hang on a while and see what the other regulars think - you have till 15 June - as I say we don't normally see a judge demand this amount of detail from the fleecers.

 

[lookinforinfo]

I think that you should point out in your new defence that the original cause of action was using the Protection of Freedoms Act Sch 4 s9 [2][f] allowing the transfer of liability from the driver to the keeper because your car was stopped by a barrier.

 

It would seem fairly obvious that any driver would be forced to stop at a barrier so the No Stopping rule surely could not apply on that sector of the road.

 

It follows that the road therefore  is not relevant land and the Protection of Freedoms Act should not have been introduced on this case.

 

It was indeed fortunate for them that you declared yourself the driver otherwise VCS may have had difficulty in explaining why they were invoking PoFA when it couldn't apply.

 

[ You have a Judge who has their card marked so the above might put VCS in a ticklish spot  before the Judge decides if there is a case , since if the land is not relevant land, they should not be claiming they have the ability to transfer the liability from the driver to the keeper.]

[Didusha]

Hello, 

 

My deadline for resubmitting my defence, if I wish, is slowly approaching - 15th June.

I will be doing so by email( VCS did so with their particulars of claim) and sending a separate copy to VCS via post.

 

I added the suggested amendment the best I could. 

 

Even if I choose not to change it, am I required to send the original defence to the court? Or, do I just leave it and wait.

 

1. It is admitted that Defendant is the recorded keeper of xxxxxxx

 

 2.As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was only contracted to provide car park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. The proper claimant is the landowner

 

 3. It is denied that the Defendant breached any terms and conditions set on private land.

 

4. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant, or broke any such contract.

 

 5. The initial cause of action used Protection of Freedom's Act Sch 4 s9 [2][f] allowing the transfer of liability from driver to keeper due to the vehicle being stopped by a barrier.

Any driver would be forced to stop at a barrier, therefore the '46) Stopping in a zone where stopping is prohibited ' as part of the alleged terms and conditions provided by the Claimant, could not apply on that section of the road.

It follows, that the road therefore is not relevant land and the Protection of Freedoms Act should not have been introduced on this case.

 

6. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all.

 

Thank you for all your input.

[dx100uk]

if you dont wish to submit a new defence

there is no need you do anything.

 

dx

 

[lapwing_larry]

On your point 5, this seems to give credence to the claimant using POFA for Stopping Events. POFA only relates to Parking and Stopping is not Parking.

 

As the new Private Parking Code of Practice Feb 2022 makes clear, POFA envisaged circumstances where a wheel-clamp may otherwise have been applied i.e. to a stationary, generally unoccupied, vehicle.

 

Further, from Private Parking Code of Practice Feb 2022:
parked/parking = an instance of a vehicle being caused by the driver to remain stationary other than in the course of driving (excluding instances where the driver has stopped to enable passengers leave or enter the vehicle)
stopped = an instance of a vehicle being caused by the driver to remain at rest whilst in the course of driving

[AndyOrch]

Topic open

[Didusha]

Hello,

 

I have just called the court to find out what is happening with the claim as I have not heard back since the last communication from the court asking VCS to resubmit particulars of claim in May of this year.

I decided not to submit a new defence, so I left it thinking this is it.

Today, I called and the clerk told me I should have notified the court that I wish to use my original defence.

They said I can still do that by emailing the court and they will notify the judge to speed things up. 

I explained that I prefer all communication to be by post, to which the clerk replied that they will still send any further communication by post irrespective of this.

My questions

- Do I notify the court by email or post?

- Do I simply resubmit the same defence(PDF, Word file) or just write to the court saying I am using the original defence?

- Do I need to include VCS on the email/post and provide them with a copy of the defence again?

 

Thank you

 

[dx100uk]

Yes both.

Rely on old defence

Yes tell vcs too

[FTMDave]

E-mail the court.

 

Snail mail to Simple Simon.

[Nicky Boy]

Didusha,

 

It was suggested back in January that you make an appeal to JLA under the terms of their contract with the fleecers, allowing them to cancel tickets...

Did you ever do this?

[Didusha]

Hello,

 

1. I Emailed the court and posted a letter to VCS with the same content.

 

2. Appeal to JLA- No, I never bothered, but as it is coming to three years since this saga began, I am going to do it this week in the hope it may get resolved sooner.

3.Do I send my appeal to the customer services email FAO the commercial director who signed the contract? I cannot identify any other contact details.

4. I will change my original appeal slightly and post it here before sending it.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[lookinforinfo]

As the Court is putting them to a stricter line I do think that you could help the Court by posing a couple of questions for JL.A.

1]VCS are being rather disingenuous in saying that they are pursuing you as the driver because you admitted it. There is no way they could pursue you as keeper because the airport byelaws prevent them form doing so as it is not relevant land. And is it fraudulent to claim they can say they can transfer the liability to the keeper when they cannot?

2] on the other  if the land is not covered by Byelaws meaning  that the land is not part of the airport then VCS  have no authority to pursue anyone.as they then  do not have a contract  with JLA . Would that not be fraudulent?

[Nicky Boy]

Just a thought... Are / were VCS allowed to obtain keeper details under the auspices of KADOE via their Trade Association, on Byelaw controlled land?

ie.not relevant land

Or, am I barking up the wrong tree?

[Didusha]

Hello, 

 

I have today received a court order to submit my witness statement and any documents I will rely upon during the hearing.

The order is dated 5th December, but RM strikes mean I have received with quite the delay.

The hearing date is set for 30th and my deadline for submission is 4th January.

 

I have a few witness statement examples which I am going over and adjusting to my case and will share for your review.

 

I am considering emailing the court on 4th before the deadline and VCS as I am not sure I can rely on postal services to deliver without delay. 

Please see the attached order.court order hearing.pdf