vcs pcn claimform - JLA Liverpool Airport-no stopping ***Claim Dismissed with Costs*** judge said VCS can't enforce no stopping

[lookinforinfo]

You can email the Court with your WS.

[FTMDave]

No need to worry.

 

As LFI says, you can e-mail the court their copy.

 

When you use RM for the fleecers, simply get a free Certificate of Posting and you're in the clear.

 

Please post up a draft WS when you're ready.

[Didusha]

Hello dear forum members,

 

Happy Christmas!

I am currently working on my witness statement. The point on which I am constructing my argument has mainly been byelaws trumping any regulations on private  land. I have just found the newly signed JLA byelaws from 11th December 2022 available on 

Liverpool John Lennon Airport Byelaws

WWW.LIVERPOOLAIRPORT.COM

---

Welcome to the official Liverpool John Lennon Airport website connecting Liverpool with the world. Click for flight information & get your parking booked today.

 

 which revokes any previous byelaws from the date it was signed.

 

the only thing I can identify in the new byelaws with regards to penalties is paragraph 3(27) which has been left deliberately vague as "failure to comply to a notice".

 

How would this change any defence argument?

I am hoping to submit a upload my first draft tonight or tomorrow at some point.

i have not received VCS WS, and I doubt I will( before 4th January) due to the timing of submission holidays and RM strikes.

 

Thank you

[FTMDave]

You need more than one argument against VCS (especially as you admitted stopping and outed yourself as the driver).

 

Post 38 lists the points you need to make.

 

Have a look at Alaska 101's WS.  It's the attachment in post 110 here  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/421775-vcs-spycar-pcn-paploc-now-claimform-no-stopping-east-midlands-airport/page/5/#comments  (If it's not in post 110 it'll be a couple of posts above or below, sometimes the post count goes wonky).

[FTMDave]

The point about bye-laws is that any offences should be prosecuted in the magistrates' court and any fines paid to the state.

 

A private company can't just waltz up and decide they are going to enforce the law and levy charges payable to themselves.

 

Don't worry if VCS's WS doesn't turn up, just look at any of their WSs for JLA, all they do is copy & paste anyway.

[Didusha]

Thank you for the input.

 

I am using Alaska's WS and a couple of others which have been based on Alaska's original. 

 

With regards to the byelaws, in the old version there was a specific section which detailed who can issue a penalty and for what violations-the  new version does not.

 

Now I am writing this, I am thinking, the byelaws make a reference to penalties, and not, of course, parking charges, so I think I understand what you mean.

 

The new and revised Byelaws also conveniently have a map of the area they cover, so it is easier for me to prove that I was in fact, in an area covered by statutory regulation.

 

In majority of the WS's the byelaws are used to argue the issue of relevant land and the transfer of liability to the Keeper, which in my case is irrelevant, as I have outed myself as the driver, so I am struggling to word this. 

 

Thanks again .

 

 

[Didusha]

Hello again. 

 

I am attaching the first draft of my WS. It needs formatting and adding of exhibits which I will work on tomorrow.

Paragraph 10 probably is ridiculous, but I thought if all fails, I can claim that even by their own rules, they can't do anything.

With regards to 11.2 - I wanted to include the new code of practice, but upon visiting gov.uk it says it has been temporarily withdrawn on 7 June 2022, so unsure whether to include or not.

I haven't added the paragraph about planning permission, because on Liverpool councils site, I have found that on 3 may 2017 a planning permission was granted for 8 red route signs and two totems to continue to be displayed, but there was no end date of the pp.

Even though VCS did not supply the pp, I am  Not sure I should include this.

 

Thank you in Advance and apologies for the layman terminology and wording.

witness statement.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

Yes that is a good start. You covered the fact that No stopping does not form a contract  [perhaps over covered it] and that there is no mention of the No Stopping on their Parking Policy. "7. Parking Charge Notices will be issued for the following contraventions."

As  your PCN was issued for No Stopping which is not on their contravention list, not only should the PCN not have been issued but VCS have breached your GDPR by doing so.

Also Liverpool Airport are not the principal land owners. The Peel group were when the  contract was first signed in 2013 so there should be a mandate included from the Peel group that Liverpool airport group are able to sign contracts on their own behalf. Then in 2019 Peel group sold 45% of the airport to the Ancala group while Liverpool Council had a 10% interest in the airport. Once again there has been no confirmation that Ancala agree with the contract or even know it exists.

Ancala acquires 45% interest in Liverpool John Lennon Airport

WWW.LIVERPOOLAIRPORT.COM

---

Welcome to the official Liverpool John Lennon Airport website connecting Liverpool with the world. Click for flight information & get your parking booked today.

Under PoFA  Schedule 4 S9 [2][a] states the Notice must state the relevant land . Just stating Liverpool area is nowhere near  specific enough to identify where the car was stopped. Nor are the photos sufficient to indicate that either. That in itself should be failure enough to have the PCN quashed never mind the fact that the incident didn't occur on the relevant land. [You should indicate where you car did the u turn on their map.] And the fact that it didn't occur on an area covered by the contract means that once again VCS have breached your GDPR.

As the contract is governed by English Law, it therefore overrules the IPC Code of Conduct. Thus the £100 maximum charge is the most that can be charged regardless what is stated on the Code of conduct.

[FTMDave]

That is great work.  Well done.

 

In (5) cut out "and that there were more than 70 prominent signs around the airport advising motorist of these restrictions".  We don't want to do the fleecers work for them!

 

Regarding (11), that needs to go as they did actually use Elms Legal so are entitled to add the £50 to the claim.

 

The whole of (11.2) needs to go as this is precisely the part of the government's CoP that the fleecers are legally challenging.

[FTMDave]

(10) is not ridiculous at all, well done on all the digging you've done.

 

The situation with the government CoP is a grey area.  Yes, it has been withdrawn, but only because the fleecers are legally challenging it on (a) the amount of their invoices and (b) the Unicorn Food Tax they add on.

 

It's not being challenged on any other points and I reckon you can include the part about stopping for a few seconds in an emergency.  If you can find the section yourself, fine.  I'm travelling at the moment but will be home late on the 30th so could do it then.

 

Great work by LFI re the airport owners.  Make sure you include these points too in challenging the rubbish contract they produced.

[Didusha]

22 minutes ago, FTMDave said:

It's not being challenged on any other points and I reckon you can include the part about stopping for a few seconds in an emergency.  If you can find the section yourself, fine.  I'm travelling at the moment but will be home late on the 30th so could do it then.

 

Great work by LFI re the airport owners.  Make sure you include these points too in challenging the rubbish contract they produced.

 

I know exactly which part that is (7.2), and will include it.

I have also included the part about the landowner.

I am just going over all imagery I will be using as evidence. Once  I have redacted everything will re-upload.

a few questions :

1. Do I need to include the whole vcs contract in my evidence section, or just the pages I am using? I have included it all for now but trying to trim it a bit.
2. I will be submitting to the court online on 4th, so can I have 4 separate PDF files ( 1 for WS, and 3 for evidence( one for section 1,2 and 3) or everything has to be in one file?
3. Do I need an Index of sorts of what is included in my "digital bundle", or do I do this in the body of the email?
4. Logistics - the forum members advice is to send to VCS via post. The court has ordered that documents are delivered no later than 4th, so I should post at the latest on Saturday 31st or Tuesday 3rd to be delivered to VCS on 4th. Or do I just send an email to court and vcs on 4th, and they cant say they have not received it?

thank you

 

 

[Didusha]

I am attaching the second draft - formatted to the best of my abilities and understanding of requirements.

I am attaching also the my evidence - divided into 3 sections.

I have included the above-mentioned points.

 

one last question - who do I send the bundle to ELMS or VCS?

The original Claim FORM, clearly states that all documents/payments are to be sent to ELMS, and so far, I have not received a letter to tell me otherwise. I have not been sending anything to VCS directly.

I know that ELMS are probably no longer engaged, because the PoC were sent by Ambreen, however I have not been told to stop sending ElMS documents.

 

thank you

 

section 1 redacted.pdf witness statement second draft.pdf

[Didusha]

attaching section 2 and separately due to size. section 3 is the byelaws for which I have supplied the link already.

Section 2 - redacted.pdf

[Didusha]

Hello all,

As this has now become an obsession, I spent half of last night reading through threads, and I came across a link to the court transcript of VCS v Ibottson which was a great read as the judge explained everything so well.( Maybe I should include the reference in the WS)

I now understand(I thought I did before but clearly not) the first part of my own argument, about the contract.

I feel slightly more confident attending the hearing, though still very nervous.

 

 

 

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

Yes it would be a good idea to include the Ibbotson  script -may help to encourage your judge.t 

[Didusha]

16 minutes ago, lookinforinfo said:

Yes it would be a good idea to include the Ibbotson  script -may help to encourage your judge.t 

thank you for this, i just noticed that it was Yourself who provided the link in the first place.

Would I do this in the evidence section and with the script in it's entirety? or with excerpts in the body of the WS?

 

Also, please find attached VCS WS - arrived today.

 

Everything in the bundle   bar a few images of red lines and signs( i have included them) is the same as what I have already received and uploaded on here.

The contract is the same, they just haven't included the contract witness statement which mentions non-stopping( I wonder why).

I have included it in my pack and mentioned it in my WS - do I remove it now, because it is the only document which mentions no stopping?

 

I have decided to print my bundle and hand deliver it on the 3rd and post VCS's copy to ELMS , instead of VCS directly, as I haven't been told to send documents to vcs directly.

 

thank you

 

VCS WS.pdf

[FTMDave]

What you've prepared is superb - take that Simon!

[FTMDave]

To answer your questions.  You should send it to Elms if that is what was written on the claimform.

 

However, I don't know what others think, but as VCS are past masters for lying and using any excuse imaginable to have court cases adjourned and motorists inconvenienced, it might be an idea, if it doesn't cost too much extra, to send VCS a copy too with a covering letter laughing at them for being incapable of deciding if they are dealing with the case or Elms are.

 

Did you decide not to include the government CoP section?

 

Yes, I would include the whole VCS contract.

 

You need to have the WS as you have prepared it, and refer to the evidence as numbered exhibits.

[Didusha]

1 hour ago, FTMDave said:

Did you decide not to include the government CoP section?

I only added 7.2, which explains that operators should be mindful when motorists briefly stop to take directions. I will add the bit about emergency as well. I removed everything else due to the legal challenge.

 

I will change the word "image" to exhibit and add coversheets to each section.

 

 

 

VCS WS isn't that spectacular and quite short.

Do I need to reduce mine, it looks too long, compared to theirs?

Or should I expect that they will be submitting additional items last minute?

 

Also,do I need to amend mine on the basis of what they are saying?

Not sure what else I can add anymore.

 

Thanks 

[lookinforinfo]

Usual rubbish from Ambreen though mercifully much shorter than normal. Sadly still as inaccurate.

 

I think you have to point out quickly that VCS are a parking company and stopping is not parking. And No Stopping is NOT a contractual clause because it is a prohibitory clause so impossible to form a contract from a prohibitory clause.

 

On top of that No Stopping is not even included in the terms of the contract.

 

That should put an end to Ambreen's WS.

 

It is all based on a breach of contract and yet there is no contract.

 

Also Liverpool airport covers an area of several hundred acres and that is as specific VCS get when describing where your car was parked! 

 

Their photos cannot pinpoint exactly where the car allegedly parked yet PoFA states that  in Schedule 4 Section 9 [2][a]

that the land where parked must be specified.

 

Major fail VCS.

If you cannot be more exact than Liverpool airport then surely their case must fail since even they don't know where the car was.. 

 

You couldn't expect a car getting a PCN in Hyde Park Corner and the ticket says it was parked in London and not get that thrown out of Court.

[FTMDave]

Regarding your deadlines, I'm driving all day and won't be able to do any work on this until tomorrow I'm afraid.

[FTMDave]

Is there any difference between the contract they sent you following CPR, and the one Ambreen has included?

 

If you want, you could take a swipe at Ambreen and VCS with a final paragraph -

 

Amreen Arshad is being somewhat disingenuous when she says she "may" be unable to attend the hearing.  I have researched scores of VCS court cases and I cannot find even one where Ms Arshad has ever appeared in court.  The same goes for Mr Mohammed Wali, the other paralegal employed by VCS to write witness statements.  This is particularly remarkable as hearings were by telephone or on-line during the COVID pandemic, with no travelling involved.  It seems that under no circumstances are VCS willing to have their witness statement authors questioned in court.

[Didusha]

 

  

9 hours ago, lookinforinfo said:

Usual rubbish from Ambreen though mercifully much shorter than normal. Sadly still as inaccurate.

 

I think you have to point out quickly that VCS are a parking company and stopping is not parking. And No Stopping is NOT a contractual clause because it is a prohibitory clause so impossible to form a contract from a prohibitory clause.

 

On top of that No Stopping is not even included in the terms of the contract.

 

That should put an end to Ambreen's WS.

 

It is all based on a breach of contract and yet there is no contract.

 

Also Liverpool airport covers an area of several hundred acres and that is as specific VCS get when describing where your car was parked! 

 

Their photos cannot pinpoint exactly where the car allegedly parked yet PoFA states that  in Schedule 4 Section 9 [2][a]

that the land where parked must be specified.

 

Major fail VCS.

If you cannot be more exact than Liverpool airport then surely their case must fail since even they don't know where the car was..

Thank you for the pointers.

I will work on including the no stopping/ parking and the fact they are deliberately conflating the two terms. I have found some references with regards to that. 

Also, the contract they sent me initially following my CPR request, contained a page called Contract witness statement, which was the only piece of paper referring to no stopping. 

I have commented on it in my WS.

However, this page is missing from their bundle.

My question is, are they doing it deliberately, so they can come at me at a later date with this piece of paper, and do I include it in my bundle and WS, and stop them from surprising me?

 

Will definitely include a comment on the elusiveness of the parking "violation's" exact location.

 

[Didusha]

1 hour ago, FTMDave said:

Is there any difference between the contract they sent you following CPR, and the one Ambreen has included?

 

If you want, you could take a swipe at Ambreen and VCS with a final paragraph -

 

Amreen Arshad is being somewhat disingenuous when she says she "may" be unable to attend the hearing.  I have researched scores of VCS court cases and I cannot find even one where Ms Arshad has ever appeared in court.  The same goes for Mr Mohammed Wali, the other paralegal employed by VCS to write witness statements.  This is particularly remarkable as hearings were by telephone or on-line during the COVID pandemic, with no travelling involved.  It seems that under no circumstances are VCS willing to have their witness statement authors questioned in court.

No difference in the contract, just missing that page called Contract witness statement from 2015. 

I am wondering whether it's deliberate or not.

I have included it in my bundle and commented on it in my WS, so I need to make a decision whether to keep it and avoid a possible ambush, or leave it out as it is the only piece of paper mentioning the words no stopping, and it does help my case.

 

I am going to the post office today to ask if I pay for a guaranteed next day delivery(signed for), they will actually do it given the strikes, and make a decision on whether to send VCS copy tomorrow or wait until 3rd.

I am hand delivering mine to the court on 3rd, I am just going to check with the court office on how to present it( bound, in folder, etc)

 

Thank you

[Nicky Boy]

I think you should really push the fact that their witness "may not" be able to attend. They had the opportunity earlier to give unavailable dates. Maybe ask for evidence of her reason for non attendance?

And lay it on thick that they have never attended hearings in the past.

Ambreen works full time for the fleecers. It's her job. There is no reason she needs to be anywhere else. She evidently ONLY carries out parking claims for her employer.

Push it and try to get her witness statement struck out for unreasonable behaviour.

You need to be able to question her on the misleading parts of her statement...