vcs pcn claimform - JLA Liverpool Airport-no stopping ***Claim Dismissed with Costs*** judge said VCS can't enforce no stopping

[lookinforinfo]

I haven't seen the Contract Witness statement you mentioned so I wouldn't include it in your WS so it means they cannot produce it in court.

I would pull her WS apart staring from point 7. The reason that you declined was that you were unwilling to negotiate when the charge has been unlawfully inflated.

 

point 8 The road signs were claiming "NO Stopping" which has nothing to do with parking.

point 9 there is no "No Stopping " clause in their contract which is  one reason why the presence of Ms Arshad is required in order to explain the discrepancy .

point 10 the driver was going to the airport and did not accept the contract since that requires a fair amount of reading and no stopping is not included in the contract.

point 11 the T&Cs of parking apply to the car park not  when driving down the road.

point 12 it is not a contractual clause. A prohibitory clause cannot form a contract even were it included in the contract. MS Arshad is put to strict proof of where it appears in the contract when she attends as she has signed that it is there. Another reason for her attendance. 

point 24 there can be no comparison with Parking Eye v Beavis since that case referred to a car park with a contract. Whereas this case revolves around stopping on a road where the action of stopping is not included in the parking contract. Completely irrelevant.

point 25  all motorists also have the right to make their way to the airport. And could Ms Arshad come to the Court and explain why a contract can be formed by driving past a sign which purports to offer a contract which does not include an offer,acceptance/ consideration nor even a no stopping clause. 

point 27 it is rather disingenuous to quote VCS v Nick Idle and Damen Ward since both cases were heard together. Not only were both unrepresented but neither of them turned up in Court! I would like Ms Arshad to come to this Court and tell the Court how often they have lost in Court when attempting to pursue motorists for No stopping at Liverpool airport. 

 

This whole VCS case is based on inexact terminology which should be stamped on in order to prevent innocent motorists from being pursued by VCS when there is no reasonable cause. Ms Arshad has signed a Witness Statement where she has included some doubtful remarks that should be examined closely in Court. It is inequitable that I can be cross examined whereas the paralegal is free to continue quoting inaccuracies in her statement without any scrutiny at all.

 

If you include all of that in your WS it is more than probable that your case will be discontinued-but at least the Court will have no doubt read it.

[Didusha]

1 hour ago, lookinforinfo said:

I haven't seen the Contract Witness statement you mentioned so I wouldn't include it in your WS so it means they cannot produce it in court.

I would pull her WS apart staring from point 7. The reason that you declined was that you were unwilling to negotiate when the charge has been unlawfully inflated.

 

point 8 The road signs were claiming "NO Stopping" which has nothing to do with parking.

point 9 there is no "No Stopping " clause in their contract which is  one reason why the presence of Ms Arshad is required in order to explain the discrepancy .

point 10 the driver was going to the airport and did not accept the contract since that requires a fair amount of reading and no stopping is not included in the contract.

point 11 the T&Cs of parking apply to the car park not  when driving down the road.

point 12 it is not a contractual clause. A prohibitory clause cannot form a contract even were it included in the contract. MS Arshad is put to strict proof of where it appears in the contract when she attends as she has signed that it is there. Another reason for her attendance. 

point 24 there can be no comparison with Parking Eye v Beavis since that case referred to a car park with a contract. Whereas this case revolves around stopping on a road where the action of stopping is not included in the parking contract. Completely irrelevant.

point 25  all motorists also have the right to make their way to the airport. And could Ms Arshad come to the Court and explain why a contract can be formed by driving past a sign which purports to offer a contract which does not include an offer,acceptance/ consideration nor even a no stopping clause. 

point 27 it is rather disingenuous to quote VCS v Nick Idle and Damen Ward since both cases were heard together. Not only were both unrepresented but neither of them turned up in Court! I would like Ms Arshad to come to this Court and tell the Court how often they have lost in Court when attempting to pursue motorists for No stopping at Liverpool airport. 

 

This whole VCS case is based on inexact terminology which should be stamped on in order to prevent innocent motorists from being pursued by VCS when there is no reasonable cause. Ms Arshad has signed a Witness Statement where she has included some doubtful remarks that should be examined closely in Court. It is inequitable that I can be cross examined whereas the paralegal is free to continue quoting inaccuracies in her statement without any scrutiny at all.

 

If you include all of that in your WS it is more than probable that your case will be discontinued-but at least the Court will have no doubt read it.

They sent it in reply to my CPR request, but have not included it in the bundle. I will attach it here, so it is clear what I am on about.

I have removed it from my WS and from my exhibits section.

 

On the points you have made above -  I will try to incorporate them into the paragraphs I have already made where possible, and add the rest as separate paragraphs.

[Didusha]

this is what they have omitted( page 2). 

contract witness statement.pdf

[Didusha]

attached is the third draft with all above pointers highlighted in green.

A question - some defendants have decided to include case law scripts as an exhibit, I have only made reference to case law and legislation in the body of my witness statement, should I add the actual sections/paragraphs as an exhibit?

 

also, many have added a paragraph about costs and a relevant exhibit to show the schedule of costs - do I need to do it?

 

thank you

Witness statement - third draft.pdf

[FTMDave]

This is magnificent work.

 

The part in green in (3) IMO is superfluous.  It doesn't harm you but isn't really relevant to whether you or VCS are legally in the right.

 

In (4.2) you could add that VCS have attached the same contract in their WS, quote whichever exhibit it is.

 

You jump from a section (5) to a section (9).

 

I'll try & read through your questions and answer them during the morning, if there is still time.

 

I know you're worried about getting the WS to the court and Elms (and maybe VCS) on time.  You could e-mail the lot early afternoon on the 4th.  Yes, I know we've gone on & on & on & on & on (and on some more) about not using e-mail, but you're at the end of the pre-hearing process now, you have VCS's WS, they can't ambush you with lies, there's little they can do to harm you with e-mail at this late stage.

 

 

[FTMDave]

OK, here goes.

 

I think you were right to omit the contract witness statement.  As Ambreen daren't appear, a solicitor will roll up who practises near you, who will know nothing about the case (and will care even less).  No way will they be ambushing you with a letter not included in the WS (which they probably won't even have read). 

 

I think your reference to case law is fine as it is.

 

Remember that you need to refer to your exhibits (in numerical order) in the WS and then add them at the end, like Ambreen has done.  e.g.  I refer to VCS's pants contract (exhibit 1) and also to the PCN which the teaboy worded (exhibit 2).

 

Prepare a document with costs but that is to be shown to the judge at the end if/when you win, it's not to go in the WS.

 

In the part where you mention the signs are small and can't easily be  read, you could add "In her Witness Statement para 23 Ms Arshad goes to great lengths to show that VCS's actions are supported by their trade association, the IPC.  Of course it is of no surprise that a breakaway biased parking association rubber stamps VCS's actions. It is neither here nor there what the IPC considers reasonable or lawful. What is important is what the law in England & Wales considers reasonable and lawful".

 

(BTW she says a sign is as big as a house door. Is that really true?  I've never been to JLA, but I was recently at EMA and I noticed all VCS's signs are quite small, and about half are placed towards the flow of traffic (fair enough) and about half parallel to the pavement where a driver wouldn't see them)

 

Sorry, I missed your (11.1).  At the start you need to make it clear which CoP you're referring to.  How about "Section 7.2 of the government Code of Practice which came out in February 2022, in accordance with the Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019, defines explicitly ..."

 

You're right it's in the wrong place, make it (10.3).

 

I wouldn't worry about the CoP being half legally challenged and half not, VCS's policy is to pretend it doesn't exist,.

 

E-mail to the court early afternoon on the 4th, obviously click on "Return Receipt", in the subject title put the case number and the names of the two parties, and CC both to VCS and to Elms so there are can be no excuses about receipt.

 

If, belt & braces, you want to hand delver a hard copy to the court, fine.

[Didusha]

Thanks for all the support, 

I am currently going through all evidence and renaming everything to exhibit 1, 2, etc. adding cover sheets and making sure page numbers are in the  correct order as I have 3 separate docs. I have included the pdf of the bylaws which I have to manually renumber as I can't edit the doc and the script of VCS v Ibbottson, for the same reasons( I really enjoyed reading it, and I thought I'd add it).

I will have a final tidy up of paragraphs, formatting, and reupload. It was too late last night, or rather this morning, so I forgot to check whether all paragraphs are in the correct order.

 

On the matter of the signs and their size, the first four are quite large but are not clearly visible from the junction ( I have mentioned one is behind the welcome sign, and the other - just being a tree). There are four ,I think two on either side.

Now, I haven't mentioned that they are retroreflective but there is no extra illumination (say like a spot light) to make sure they are visible at night and twilight. 

I was driving when it was still dark, so no way I saw them clearly enough, nevermind read them in their entirety and understand that they are in fact a contract, and what area this contract covers. I did notice the spycar at the time, and was tempted,like many others, to stop and ask them for directions, I am glad I didn't.

At the entrance to the car park where I stopped, there is apparently a tiny sign saying no stopping, I saw it on Google maps, not at the time.

 

Oh, I nearly forgot, I got the reduced rate letter today, offering me the unique opportunity to settle for £192.50 within 14 days. The letter is dated the same as their WS.

Also it says that they will seek from the court a further £220 costs for a solicitor to attend.

It's neverending, I will try and grab something from another ws and add it to the last section.

 

I will figure out delivery on 3rd January whether I will pay for special delivery or email to VCS, I will decide that on the day.

 

[FTMDave]

Look at Alaska's point 19.  It was Alaska who first got this idiotic £220 letter and decided to use it against VCS.  In fact, let's enhance Alaska's point -

 

19.  As per another letter received on 31 December 2022 (exhibit XXX), the claimant seeks further costs of £220 incurred in having to instruct a local solicitor to attend the hearing, if I do not accept their offer for settlement.  I look forward to whoever represents VCS at the hearing really making this request.  VCS know full well that legal costs for this sum are capped at £50.  This sum of £220 is a total invention designed to intimidate the Defendant into giving in.

 

Add it to your Double Recovery section in the same position that Alaska did.

 

As you've decided to include the Ibbotson case then you might as well go the whole hog and draw the obvious conclusion: as VCS's representative was reprimanded by the judge and reminded that imprisonment was a possibility, it can be speculated that this is the reason why neither Ms Arshad nor any other VCS employee are ever willing to appear in court.

 

You've got a lot of info on the rubbish signage.  Maybe split all the signage paras off into a new INSUFFICIENT SIGNAGE section?

[lookinforinfo]

I have just read the whole Court case of VCS v Idle and Ward.

 

It was an appeal by VCS after they had lost in their first Court cases.

 

On appeal VCS agreed to drop the appeal against Idle over the question of whether he was the driver.

Therefore Idle did win his case so not as persuasive as Ambreen stated.

 

I think that you should ask the Court to challenge the paralegal on her appearing to say that the Nick Idle case was persuasive. 

 

 

[FTMDave]

I've finally got round to finding the part of the government CoP you could include.

 

Annex F

F.1

g

 

 

[brassnecked]

Extremely good work, the £220 letter is a godsend, as it can be included as per FTMDave's suggestion, its another bullet through their foot.  Also separating out the signage as a section also clarifes that problem with their claim and WS.

[Didusha]

I should have the final draft ready for upload shortly.

just a quick question regarding what to include in the bundle.

Do I need to include the original claimform( VCS have done so) , and I did search online guidance and have seen the particulars of claim have to be included in the bundle at the start?

 

thank you

 

 

[FTMDave]

As far as I know you don't need to include the PoCs.

 

Can you link to the information you found?

[Didusha]

I was just looking on info regarding the court bundle came across the below:

https://www.guildhallchambers.co.uk/files/HOWTOPREPARECOURTBUNDLES.pdf

 

the fact that vcs included it made think I should too. I have done - literally copied theirs and added it to the front of my ws.

 

I am printing everything tomorrow and posting to VCS/ hand delivering to court - 

I am using a folder with a cover sheet ( case name, number, date of hearing and time) 

Will the court office give me anything to say I have delivered it on time, or the date I have delivered it? - a receipt?

[FTMDave]

The list is extremely generic covering all sorts of cases, so IMO you don't really need to include the PoCs.  However, that said, you lose nothing by including them.

 

I have no idea if the court give you a receipt.  To be on the safe side I'd prepare one myself and ask them to stamp or sign it.

 

What have you decided re the Elms v VCS issue?

[Didusha]

I will request something in writing from the court, if it is at all required. I. Just thinking to cover all eventualities and overthinking it, of course.

 

Re VCS and elms, I will send special delivery, signed for. It will cost me a bit more but at least I will have proof it has been delivered.

I am past caring about the extra few pounds, with the amount of time and work( not just mine, but all of yours) this has taken.

If for whatever reason RM fail to deliver it on 4th, I will know and will email both and will copy in the court, just so they can't say I haven't sent it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

I'm an overthinker like you - I think your approach is spot on.

 

It'll-be-alright-on-the-nighters lose court cases.

 

Overthinkers win court cases.

 

Always best to prepare too much than too little.

 

 

[Didusha]

I am attaching the last draft, I have included everything mentioned above with minor changes at times to make it my own.

I didn't include Ibbotson, too tired for this, and my bundle has reached 80 pages.

I will be printing and posting tomorrow before 1pm, to ensure next day delivery to VCS and Elms.

And will hand deliver to court - thankfully I have been to the actual Court building before.

 

If the copy hasn't been delivered to VCS by 3pm on 4th, I will email them and Elms and will copy in the court as they keep record of all correspondence( unfortunately I don't have return receipt feature in any of my personal mailboxes, so I cannot use it). I called the court once and they read back to me the emails VCS tried to send me and my reply to that email ( they were copied in on that).

 

Tomorrow I will ask the court office  if they have paid the hearing fee. I assume they have, as they have added it to the rest of the costs in their witness statement.

 

fingers crossed all goes well.

witness statement - third draft REDACTED.pdf

[FTMDave]

I'm getting repetitive on this thread.

 

Magnificent work

[Didusha]

mission " submit WS" completed.

copies to  VCS and ELMS sent via special delivery by 1pm tomorrow.

court copy had delivered to the court - i printed two cover sheets for my bundle so they stamped one( date and time) for me to keep, this was the only thing I could get as proof I have delivered it on time.

 

I will check tracking tomorrow.

 

[Didusha]

WS - delivered, so no need to email them.

now, to get ready for the hearing. 

 

[Didusha]

hello all, 

 

in order to prepare for the hearing, would I focus on reading more case law,/legislation, or simply read my WS until I am confident in delivering my points?

 

thank you

[FTMDave]

Small claims is very informal.  There's no need to know the law inside out.  Just concentrate on rehearsing your main points.

 

I mean, a damn barrier blocked your way.  What were you supposed to do?

[brassnecked]

Given their stance on No Stopping forming a contract an aside might be  Perhaps stopping for the barrier under any circumstances is forming a contract allowing the fleecer to invoice or wording to imply stopping at all to allow the barrier to  open  would generate a PCN given their WS.

[Didusha]

UPDATE: today they have sent a supplement statement by email, and copied me in. I will apply shortly.

I think they have already used it previously in other cases. She quoted a case from 1856.

I will upload the supplement WS shortly.

Do I have a right to ask the judge not to accept this as it is 5 days after the submission date on the order?